What does it take to become the interim Chief Dental Officer (CDO)? Meet Dr. Jason Wong, who paints us a vivid picture of the role of a CDO, emphasizing it's not just about contract reform; patient advocacy, clinical policy, and promoting oral health are also essential. He shares his fascinating journey from being born in Penang, Malaysia, to moving to the UK at age 8, to navigating dental school in Birmingham and unexpectedly finding his path in dentistry.
The profession of dentistry is often perceived as challenging, but the Covid-19 pandemic has amplified it, especially within the NHS. Dr. Wong candidly discusses his experience of joining the CDO team during the pandemic, the chaotic communication, safety concerns, and accountability pressures that ensued. The conversation progresses into the intricacies of navigating the NHS workforce, the existing support discrepancy between the NHS and private practices, and the significant role of organizations like the BDA.
In the final segment of our conversation with Dr. Wong, we broach the subject of leadership and the urgent need for culture change in dentistry. With strong conviction, Dr. Wong expresses that leadership is a responsibility bestowed on everyone, regardless of their position. We reflect on the impact of the 2011 Health Select Committee report, discuss the piloting of alternative contract reforms, and navigate the complexities of the NHS workforce. If you're keen to understand how to make a difference and leave a legacy in the field, this enlightening episode with Dr. Jason Wong is a must-listen.
What does it take to become the interim Chief Dental Officer (CDO)? Meet Dr. Jason Wong, who paints us a vivid picture of the role of a CDO, emphasizing it's not just about contract reform; patient advocacy, clinical policy, and promoting oral health are also essential. He shares his fascinating journey from being born in Penang, Malaysia, to moving to the UK at age 8, to navigating dental school in Birmingham and unexpectedly finding his path in dentistry.
The profession of dentistry is often perceived as challenging, but the Covid-19 pandemic has amplified it, especially within the NHS. Dr. Wong candidly discusses his experience of joining the CDO team during the pandemic, the chaotic communication, safety concerns, and accountability pressures that ensued. The conversation progresses into the intricacies of navigating the NHS workforce, the existing support discrepancy between the NHS and private practices, and the significant role of organizations like the BDA.
In the final segment of our conversation with Dr. Wong, we broach the subject of leadership and the urgent need for culture change in dentistry. With strong conviction, Dr. Wong expresses that leadership is a responsibility bestowed on everyone, regardless of their position. We reflect on the impact of the 2011 Health Select Committee report, discuss the piloting of alternative contract reforms, and navigate the complexities of the NHS workforce. If you're keen to understand how to make a difference and leave a legacy in the field, this enlightening episode with Dr. Jason Wong is a must-listen.
Hi everyone. Welcome to episode 30 of the Diary of a Dental Coach Podcast. We've had some amazing, amazing people. We always start the show with reference to our previous guests. So last week we had Sabah Arif, who was from Smart Dental Compliance, who set up an entrepreneur business helping dental practices deal with dental compliance. We also had Grant McCurry, who is a business mentor, very well known in the dental sector and obviously rober. Reception is something you know and communication first part of call with patients is really, really important and something he feels really passionate about. So really delighted and privileged to have the interim Chief Dental Officer on the show. Welcome, dr Jason Wong.
Speaker 2:Thanks for that. So good to join you actually this evening.
Speaker 1:It's an honour and privilege to join you. I think we should just start off by there's a lot of confusion obviously in the profession about who the Chief Dental Officer is, what their role is, what their remit is and how they function. So if you could just give us some clarity on what the CDO role involves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I suppose at its core the CDO works across NHS England and the Department of Health.
Speaker 2:Although it's hosted currently by NHS England in terms of its function, it is the role of being advisor to the Secretary of State and Ministers and Department of Health, and also it works within NHS England as essentially the clinical policy lead for the system. So where there is decisions to be made in clinical policy, appropriateness of how certain things occur, certain things are used and how dental practices carried on both across private and NHS is part of the remit. I think what you're probably getting at is the often misunderstood part, which is the fact that a lot of people think that the CDO is responsible for the contracts, which they never have been in the past. It might have been slightly different when the CDO post sat in the Department of Health some time back when the development of the contract reform, but since then really the role is very clearly defined specifically. Not that although of course, as I keep telling people, of course we would always try and influence the system and any kind of reform for the better of patients and for the better of profession.
Speaker 1:So would you say that your role is more as a civil servant, acting for the government rather than for the dental profession?
Speaker 2:So technically it's not a civil servant job but it is. The role is to present what we think is on behalf of the profession. But yes, you know, the advocacy we will always say is actually for patients first, before profession, and whilst we would represent the profession's view on certain things and how things would benefit profession and patients alike, it is not a specific role to sit there and be the representative body of dentists. It probably looks towards the entire team a lot more. So we will always talk about the dental team, or what I used to call dental family, which pops up from time to time. That includes not just, not just registrants, actually that everyone involved in dentistry. So yeah, it's a tricky one, because it's not. You know, the one absolute, clear policy role is the clinical policy. Everything else is how you would expect the head of the profession to behave in a way to benefit not just profession but patients, and how to actually, you know, for example, promoting dentistry within general health as well and what what improving oral health can do for general health.
Speaker 1:Is this an evolving role? I mean one of the things that again, obviously this was pre me qualifying, obviously new contract came in 2006 and obviously on social media there's a lot of blame to perhaps Barry Cochrof, one of the the CDO at the time, who perhaps introduced or helped introduce, yeah, is it right to blame the CDOs for some of the things that have happened, or or not? What's your view on this?
Speaker 2:I think it varies and changes from time to time and I think the evolving role probably is correct. I think you know obviously I wouldn't want to comment on a predecessor, but I think that you know you that at some point it becomes the role of if, if, if, if they're asked the CDO to be the senior responsible officer for contract reform, for example, then that would be a very different issue. So the emphasis, depending on who's in post, will depend on on really the, the areas that they're asked to get involved in and the areas that they do get involved in.
Speaker 1:Excellent, so tell us about yourself and, obviously, your journey. Where was it that you were born?
Speaker 2:So I was born in Penang in Malaysia, came over as a young child for eight, nine years old for schooling and things, and then I trained in in Birmingham, qualified in 95, which does sound like an over long time ago and and since then Was that where you grew up?
Speaker 1:was it Birmingham?
Speaker 2:No, no no, we, we sort of had a family sort of flat in in London for most of that time but moved over to to to Birmingham very much actually enjoyed the sort of being in the city, I suppose. And then why did you do dentistry? Well, I mean, part of it is almost. I think we're rebelling a bit.
Speaker 2:My dad was a GP so I just wasn't going to do to do that. So it I can't really focus on that because it's a particular point, but but but it seemed like something I had quite like to do at the time. It was more involved, more more direct, so the care and yeah, it's kind of almost fell into it. I'm sure there was a little bit of rebellious streak that wasn't going to do medicine, but but my dad did not against me but but yeah.
Speaker 1:So so dentistry seemed to seem to fit really nicely and and for me it's been a great decision so what was Birmingham dental school like, I mean it's, it's always traditionally a lot of people have really really had good things to say about it. Even the teaching and the online courses used to be really really good. What was your experience like?
Speaker 2:no, I've found it's great and we have a, you know, still a great relationship with people that we qualify with. There's a special, you know, place. We we get together for real not very often, but when we do, I also have the benefit of meeting my wife there, on the steps of the medical school and in the first term. So we've been together ever since. So so for me, you know, yeah, birmingham was great as a dental school. You spend a pre-clinical with the medical and on campus, which is also quite nice. You get the sort of university kind of lifestyle as well, and then you, what we used to move to dental school, which was in the city centre, is now moved to a really nice building, I think in 2016.
Speaker 2:But yeah, to me it was, it was really good. I think we were the first what they call the white glove year, so we were the first year that everyone that was entered into finals passed ever in Birmingham at the time. And there is still, I would say, a special bond with and in fact, I met, you know, met up with one one of my colleagues just at the weekend, but by accident at the wedding. But actually, yeah, it's, it's, it was really good to me and we were really, really pleased to be. You know, to be there and you know it's it sort of it led to everything else that I did after that thing so obviously you enjoyed your time in dental school.
Speaker 1:What was the next step for you?
Speaker 2:so it was my, my, my wife's father died in probably a third or fourth year when we were there. So actually, you know, having come from Malaysia, lived in London to Birmingham, moving to Grantham in Lincolnshire wasn't on the top of my sort of list of things I was ever going to do. But actually we moved back because, you know, just to be close. So we thought, well, you know, we've got VT at the time, you know so. So we moved back into into this area and I have to stay there ever since. So I really again, really, you know, really pleased with the move. I I know that people refer to Lincolnshire as a dental desert, so they obviously need the, the, the provision that we give, and I did. You know I kind of crammed quite a lot in at the beginning. So within three years really, of qualifying, we got married, we had our son arrived and I bought into an 11 surgery practice as a part of which, in the call, like a day, seemed like a an absolute crazy thing to be taking on in in all that.
Speaker 1:But I'm still in that practice today so at the time was it an 11 surgery or was it a time of the 11 surgery practice now 12 surgery practice.
Speaker 2:So we've only increased it by one over that time frame, but it was a very different run place. You know the the guys actually were looking to to to retire, having an option to retire. There were two lady associates that was in the practice already and and and all three of us sort of brought, brought into the practice at that time and that's, and that's proven, an absolute excellent move for me as well. And, as I said, we still, you know, we, we know, as I said, run 12 surgery practices. It's a completely different place. What it was 49 people in the building, not at the same time, I said to add, but you know, so we, you know, do anything from, you know, sort of basic restorative work, you know, through to dental implants and and we still got some sort of oral surgery specialism and things within within the practice. So, and you know, we have a general dentist wise, we're about 14, 14, 15 dentists, some of them quite part time, but but I suppose some of them will say that I'm quite part time right now as well, which I'd have to take. I don't think I could argue again considering recent moves. So so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's been good, you know, and and I suppose I I never envisioned sort of taking on any other roles if I'm, if I'm honest, always had an opinion about stuff. So who? And I think that I was asked to actually take part in, at some, the local dental committee in in Lincolnshire and at the time you know it's a the dental committee. I think I was the youngest person. Then after being on the committee for 10 years, I probably was still the youngest person there and and really you know that that was really good, you know, representing colleagues and and doing the work there and I still have a close link, you know, with them. Now you know they still invite me to come and come and speak to them and and and join in.
Speaker 2:And then I suppose after that, it was when NHS England came into being in 2013 and there was this idea of having a clinically led NHS was supposed to be how it was couched and the creation of a of a local. At that time, as a dental local professional network chair and I used to be worried about admitting this, but I don't anymore which is the fact that actually I, having seen who was in the running to apply for that post, I decided that that couldn't let that happen. So I applied for that and it's a, it's a, it's a day a week and was successful, and that that was, I suppose, when I joined NHS England in 2013. And then during that time, the, the area kind of grew. So, having been asked to cover Leicestershire, lincolnshire, it then grew into Northampton and Milton Keynes, loon beds and Hartfordshire was just kind of huge ways in the middle of the country.
Speaker 2:And and then, you know, as I said it, during the pandemic, the opportunity to to apply for deputy CDO came up. It was suggested by a couple of people that I should apply, which I, which I did, and then, ever since then, to have been been working within the office, I've kind of concentrated more on professional leadership, patient safety, how you know, the moving into the culture, change from from culture of fear, and actually moving, trying to move the profession out of the, the situation we seem to have found ourselves in, which is, which is that everyone's rather fearful of what we do, and and and and how we're doing it, and worried about regulation, we're about negligence. So most of my work within the office actually wasn't to do with contract reform and system reform. It was more to do with that side of things so was.
Speaker 1:Was this intentional or did you fall into it? Or were you feeling quite passionate about some of the things that were happening within the NHS, thinking I want to make a difference? What were your thought process in this journey?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think I think I probably engineered it without and and I was given the permission to to engineer it, if you like.
Speaker 2:So I certainly felt that and you know when, when I was first asked about it, I felt that the profession seemed to be really worried that what we were doing in surgery, which seemed actually eminently very reasonable, could be construed as being the wrong thing to do and the the balance was just off. So one of the first thing I wanted to do was to make sure that that we didn't have a situation where you know most of us turn up to work to try and do good that actually you've got in the back of your mind the worry about the regulator, the worry about clinical negligence. Actually shouldn't be that way. So I wanted to start that work stream and I was allowed to by the CDO at the time to do that. There was initially talk about doing contract and system reform, but then we had Professor Rebecca Harris join the team, who had had previous sort of experience in writing about the principles of remuneration system, contracting and everything else. So it seemed like the right thing to do To be honest, I, the MBE that you received.
Speaker 1:Was this before the CDO role or during the CDO role? Yeah, yeah, yes, and how'd that come about?
Speaker 2:Totally unconnected, can I just say. As far as I'm aware so it's a really weird thing if people ask about that. So I can't remember when it was it was probably November time I had this sort of phone call from the Cabinet Office. I actually thought it was a prank but I couldn't think who would be playing the prank on me. And then they sort of contacted and they sort of wanted to know a few things and said this is just my test. So that was the first I heard of it.
Speaker 2:No one had gotten in touch, absolutely nothing. I think they had contacted the practice by. My business partner said to me, as we were nearing the date, or they have contacted the practice most of the time, I said she's actually centered around the work that I did in Leicester City in terms of the improvement in children's oral health, the oral health board that we were running, plus also the management of networks and things like that that we had and in terms of patient care. So it's utterly unconnected actually and it came before the so how did people recognize your work with this?
Speaker 1:Was this people recommending you to be on the honors list? How did that come about?
Speaker 2:So I still don't know who did absolutely no idea whatsoever. When I was read the citation, I see the fingerprints of some individuals that maybe I know, so I really can't even give you that answer. But yes, it is very much someone.
Speaker 1:Does it come as a surprise to you?
Speaker 2:I was just getting on with life. You know, we had the strange situation my son had gone out to Japan for his sort of exchange year, or at least spend a year doing at the University of Kyoto. So this thing was announced whilst I was out in Japan, you know, and I was conducting sort of interviews and stuff you know from from a cool interest. So no utterly news to me. There was a bit of pressing just before, so I knew I'd have, you know, a couple of months of heads heads up, but no utterly. As I said, I thought it was a prank at first.
Speaker 1:So how did it feel when you actually collected your MB?
Speaker 2:I mean, it was amazing really, because it's not. It's not even something that was ever kind of, you know, in my, in my eye line and and yeah, I think it was, it was on, it was a really nice day, although it was really strange because I think it was the 11th of March 2020.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:London was deserted. I had just held a meeting in Birmingham with because I was covering for the dental network, and I drove down, met the family and and we walked up and and you know there's hand sanitizers everywhere and it was the whole situation.
Speaker 1:So it's a really strange just before the lockdown started, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was the very last thing, and in fact it was. It was exactly that. It was the week before, before the beginning to have restrictions placed, and then the fall lockdown came a couple of weeks after.
Speaker 1:Did you get to meet the Queen then, when you received this?
Speaker 2:It was given to. It was given to me by Prince Charles at the time, so I don't think you get to choose that. That's just whoever's on the the road. So it's a fair concern.
Speaker 1:So did you say anything? Did you talk to? Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:So we stopped the handshake by then. So there was no handshake. You know there was a signal, but but it was interesting because his first question off the bat was whether do I still treat patients? That was, that was quite interesting question. There's real health and actually I was predominantly a clincher, you know, and and he says, well, how do you cope with all these people? And so we had a very, very brief chat over that, but I think he was surprised that was still a working clinician, right?
Speaker 1:okay, okay, suppose it's interesting because you always want to know what what it's like meeting the Royals, meeting these these moments, because nobody really ever talks about them, but obviously it's nice to share. It's interesting how this all happened, very quickly, obviously, and then you're in this and then obviously we're for everyone. There was panic stations just oh yeah, you know, days afterwards and it was just like unprecedented the events that that followed. What I noticed, obviously you were brought in was it in May 2020. So that was two months into the pandemic when you actually started your role. Is that right?
Speaker 2:No, I actually had my interview on the eighth of June 2020, which for for you might think that rings a bell and actually day we returned to work, so I had the weirdest thing, which is I had an interview with with Radio Lincoln show or something, in the morning. I then started treated our first patients in in a couple of months almost, and then, as I was, and then at lunchtime I had an interview with with Sarah Hurley Matt Nelligan at the time and really so it was a surreal day. I took up post, probably sort of July, august time, but I started joining the teams shortly after that and you are right, I mean it is a surreal time. I do still think about that you know when you took this role on.
Speaker 1:Obviously there was a lot that happened and one of the things that happened was obviously the closing down of dental practices and it was reverting to emergency care. And I suppose one of the things that I would say was was a recurring theme perhaps with dentists was the lack of clarity and the last minute communications. So I actually vividly remember like we were told in as dentists we didn't know what date we were opening and then within two or three days of it, we found out on the news that, oh, dentists are now having to open on this day and we as dentists didn't even know that we were opening, and I think that there's obviously a lot of criticism from that time from dentists the fact that there was. So the communication is very late and probably not not clear as well to some extent.
Speaker 2:I think that's fair. I think I mean it was a chaotic time and you know, when that sort of ticker ran across the BBC, I was no, I was no, no better informed than than anyone else at that time and I was working within the regions. I was working with NHS Midlands and we had a meeting every single day and I probably worked for NHS Midlands five days a week during that whole pandemic time and within the regional commissioners actually didn't know until that came across. Now I can't really it'll be second hand info and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to say, but I think it was.
Speaker 2:It was pretty chaotic across the piece. There were things that were coming out and suddenly things were being pushed along. Communication was difficult, mainly because we, whilst we this is our lives actually dentistry doesn't form a massive part of the NHS. So all the communication was coming back through the NHS and there were quite a lot of competing sort of properties and issues. That was sort of coming along. But yeah, I mean I think that when that came out it was very much you know last minute, but that was how everything else was done. There's no excuse for it, but that is how it was carried out. I mean, since I've joined the team, we've tried to make communication, but I still can't communicate out without approval centrally. So all the things that I send out now has to be approved, has to go through a process, and now it can still take many days before I can get anything out. At that time, of course, there were a whole host of things going on, and getting things out was actually getting even more difficult.
Speaker 1:So tell us obviously about that time when you joined. I mean, obviously there's things that you can't tell us, but it must have been very, very chaotic, stressful, panic kind of situation, because obviously from dental teams there wasn't that, the information came in drips but it wasn't still clear. And perhaps the previous CDO has been accused of being very cold and not being very personable and not you know talking. But and obviously tell us you know, when you joined the CDO team, what was that like, what was the general situation at the time?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think there was no question that I was joining a team that had been through quite an event and you could see that was the case and, in fact, stepping in after the sort of initial suspension of face to face actually, you know was was a slightly easier time to come in. It was really then about how, having never, ever suspended face to face for dentistry, how that was going to be restarted. There was a whole load of things and you'll be aware of it, that you know there were. There were issues that were happening with where the dental teams were being paid correctly, the NHS support mechanism had gone in, there were there were press things, you know, accusing the profession of not not reopening what went out Okay. So so there was, there was all sorts of things and it was almost like, I think, ever, almost like it was like a war for ting. Really, you know, you come in and the first thing you did was just basically deal with the, the bigger burning platforms first, and then you move on to the next. So it was very much like that. But I think you know in a lot of ways it's an unprecedented event and how how it was, how the, the, the, the profession and the, the office and indeed the NHS as a whole. What is going to be an inquiry over over how, how the response was. But there's no question that there was a lot of unknowns at the time as to what was safe, what wasn't.
Speaker 2:What did strike me was I was very much involved in trying to see how things got restarted with the faculty general practice at the time and and others and and you know things like well that that there was in the center there was always this constant big concern about safety. So you know I can sit there and say, look, I've looked at the evidence and an FFP, two buses, more than enough, run there for P3. But what, what you've? What I didn't realize was those leaders and I'm talking about medical now were being called in front of parliamentarians to explain why people were dying. You know, and if there was one chance of one, one case of something getting through, we're not going to do that.
Speaker 2:So it was very cautious approach, didn't help the profession, who were trying to restart things as quickly as it it could. But even within the profession there was a split, wasn't there? I mean, we had, you know there were. There were people absolutely screaming for things to be shut down. So I remember that very clearly people accusing saying you know they got blood on their hands because they're not shutting down, and then, on the other hand, you've got those that actually wanted to restart early on. The truth of the matter is, I think, the first few weeks everything shut down then that I mean that was.
Speaker 2:That was the thing. I mean, you know, there were some essential services kept up and again, I think the the I had concerns about the resilience of the workforce. I had concerns about the fact that you know the professions for confidence, given the fact that we were felt slightly under pressure from all the things that had happened before in terms of regulation, and I suppose that was one of the main things was you know, how do you restart things safely and restore services? Remember vividly, I mean the only to go through the only time that I think we were involved in the negotiations was that the threshold at 36% and 45%, that that that is the only time that we were actually actively involved in in, in negotiating those, those exact figures at the time, based upon what we thought was was reasonable, what we thought was achievable.
Speaker 1:I mean overall. Obviously, we all look back I think the NHS was very fair in terms of the targets and in terms of the expectations and and how things actually obviously certain little things that everyone has their own little things about but overall, you know, especially working myself as a dentist and as a dental associate throughout the pandemic, I thought the targets were very reasonable, you know, very fair and allowed teams to be able to be off a field fully safe. What I wanted to ask was how were the decisions made? Throughout the pandemic was every three or four months, I think there were obviously changes and to the targets and changes to these things. Now, was it that? You know? Was it? Was there a team of people involved? How were these decisions made as to what the target was, how, how we were going to reface things, how are you going to prioritize certain patients? All these, obviously, documents that came came out, how were they, how did they come about and how were decisions made?
Speaker 2:So I think I think after the, the initial setup was very much how the NHS as an organization was, was trying to see its different services either continue or or, at the beginning, sort of suspended, and then how it's going to restart. There was a pressure to to restart it as as, as quickly as possible because the stories was I don't know whether you remember that winter rife about people taking out their own teeth and all all this kind of thing. So there was a real pressure to do that in some quarters. The decision ultimately for the NHS was made by the NHS chief executive, the. The unique thing about dentistry was it was the one sort of letter that came out to tell everyone what was going on in the next phase. That was signed off both by minister and the chief executive of the NHS. So actually both had to and that was that led to obviously you can imagine some delay because both had to approve everything that was there. And again, you know the, the, the main part of the, the role although you know you try and make sure that the correct level set is actually from our side was exactly what could be done in that time given the constraints that was being placed on. You know the sort of time after, after an AGP etc and all those kind of things.
Speaker 2:But I remember vividly that sort of step winter, partly because it was my 50th birthday as well. But and then and then, when the 45 was, I think two days for Christmas, as I didn't go down particularly well, but you know the abuse that came my way. I remember sitting there thinking, oh God, I, you know, and I of course run the practice and I've actually thought at the time that 36% threshold was actually doable. But I mean you would not believe. I mean I kept some of it actually because I was asked to give a presentation recently. It's quite therapeutic and I kept some of the screenshots of people send me at the time. But the other thing was, after the New Year course there was there were people calling for because there was a, there was a wave and there was people calling for us to be snapped back into urgent care. Only, I don't know whether you remember that yeah.
Speaker 2:And I kept making a point. You know there's private practices who'd already cleared their urgent. They want to keep getting care. But yeah, you're right, Everyone had their angle and they wanted to argue for it. It's a difficult time, so unprecedented time. I don't blame anyone, for you know any of the actions that that they took on there. I agree with you. I think that the support mechanism in terms of the financial support for NHS practices was, was, was pretty good at that time. There was an anomaly where private practices were not supported. That that is an issue. And then there was always this question about exactly you know when things were issued, where that sits in terms of what is that for? For you know, nhs practices, that for private practices. But you know, the virus is still the virus. Yeah, you know, patients to the patient, you know so, so, so that was. That was always a delicate balancing.
Speaker 1:It's hard to unpick, but there was quite a lot in terms of like contracts and decision making, especially during that time, how influential were, for example, the BDA? And because obviously they sometimes tried to claim that they were the ones who helped get these targets and fought for dentists and things like that, I mean, how influential were they? How influential are they in the decision making by the NHS?
Speaker 2:I mean I think I think I should stay clear of making a comment on how I saw a different organization act. I promise I'll try not to duck too many things, but that's what you try to line up for me there. What I would I mean, what I would say is I think that and even now the point that I would make is that I think the arguments been made that things are not good, I think you know by the profession and indeed as a whole, and by the, by the press, that that's now followed that and the political pressures. The challenge now is for the profession to be able to speak with anything resembling one voice as to what the next should be. Because you know we've got different systems operating in different parts of the UK and you know. So you could say, you know well, we've got what the per item type thing going on in Scotland, we've got a contract reform type thing going on in Wales, and so you know, and you've got sort of different governments operating in each of these.
Speaker 2:So I think that the big challenge for the profession is to say look, actually we want to. You know we need reform, we have to support the process for reform and we need that. Yes, we want the pace of it to speed up, which is actually what I sent out. I think you know we do need need to have that, but I think that we we need to be able to look, and when I see colleagues go Missy Eye over fee per item and then look at the fees for 2005. I do think I do recommend they have a look at that when, when people start lamenting that I wish we had fee per item again.
Speaker 1:So you know, fundamentally there is there is an issue and we need to find a way through it and and I think it's interesting because even when I graduated back in 2011, the talk was this contract is not going to stay, it's going to be changed, it's going to be changed and we like 10 years on, 12 years on from then, and obviously things have changed somewhat to some extent, but obviously not, not really.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I don't know whether this that is true, but you said, the funding for the NHS dentistry is only for 50% of the population, which which then is is a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so I suppose that that's coming from the figure that roughly 50% of population have accessed it in the last two years. That's kind of, and it's gone up a little bit, down a little bit, but it's always been the case. Part of the problem is that the the sort of the situation on the ground is so different. You know, you've got some who are predominantly within the NHS and then you've got others that have a like a very small side only contract, and we had that during the pandemic as well. Yeah, actually people representing saying you know, we've actually used up what we were supposed to, kind of thing. So so, yeah, I think, I think that you know one of the things is is that it's really difficult to pull a lever that's going to to satisfy everyone.
Speaker 1:Do you know the small changes that came about with the five UDAs and things? How did that come about? The because because obviously they do help. I think you know I'm working in that new system and I think they do help and it is finally being recognised where you have to do multiple buildings and doing phased treatments for patients and things like that, because previously it had been sort of people were unsure whether they were allowed to do that. I think some of the chains have been positive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the change has been positive and the unfortunate thing and you're quite right, it's so you call for in 2011. Yeah, say yeah. So very much on the younger end of the spectrum, I should say so I. So there was, there was the contract, sort of brought in 06. And then you had the health select committee saying it wasn't, sort of wasn't fit for purpose at the time. And then the late Jimmy Steel had led this review, which which actually outlined how you would make a system that had a cab budget work.
Speaker 2:The problem then was that they went on a process of piloting and prototyping and and and actually it was no-transcript and there was a lot of the time. I mean, I remember there was a group trying to bring on alternative contract reform, kind of from the northeast of the country, which wasn't well supported by, you know, by other areas and by the representative bodies, and one of the and actually what they were trying to do was to bring in certain sort of tweaks, different UDAs for things which not to the submittal, what was brought in. So the problem was that from 2011, there was a commitment almost during that parliament that they would bring something in. It didn't quite work, so they had to extend it. So all through those years, it wasn't the fact that they weren't doing anything, it was actually they were trying to pilot something and bring something out that says this is now the system. I think there's an acknowledgement now that, actually, that if you keep piloting to try and find the perfect system, you may never make the changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what you raised absolutely right. You know, had the profession got behind, people that were suggesting Tweaking Center 2014,. You know that's nine years ago. You could have had some of that stuff now, but there's a bit of a. You know, I fully understand that people saying you shouldn't touch it, you need to rip the whole thing up, but that isn't what's on offer right now. You know that the people that can make those decisions and certainly not us, but the people that can make those decisions is not offering that. You need to then accept that, within the parameters, what's the best way of sort of forging ahead to change that system to benefit both patients and profession?
Speaker 1:So coming to like the situation now, obviously you know yourself there's a big recruitment crisis as practices suffering significantly with clawbacks, struggling to make their NHS practices profitable, etc. How do you see this playing out and how do you think things may change with this?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it was good that they recommended the increase in dentist numbers, although that's going to take some time to work through. And the key issue of recruitment and retention until recently was always reality. It was the fact that most dentists that qualify wanted to stay around the city. In fact, our population base actually is moving a little bit towards that. You know the population are moving towards that. You know London, greater London, birmingham and the surrounding areas, so I think part of it will be incumbent and dependent upon them improving a system so that there will be people willing to be retained in it and you can recruit to it. And it's a very different situation to London, to where I work, in Lincolnshire. It just is. And in fact in the rural locality, whether it's Lincolnshire, cornwall, devon, norfolk, suffolk, cumbria, whatever I actually think we will probably see those kind of almost 10 years where there was a huge influx.
Speaker 2:Most years we had more new foreign dentists registering with the GDC than we did. You know UK graduates, so we were producing around about 1000. And in some years there were 234 and beyond 1000 sort of joining the list. I actually think we'll probably see those years as the outliers because, as I keep pointing out. When I told you that I bought into the practice, my wife came back to this, to the tab. They hadn't accepted new patients for about two years. There was a recruitment issue even then and actually I see those sort of almost 10 years where there was a huge influx of foreign qualified dentists. It actually has the outlier. It was when the workforce suddenly matched what the demand was. So I think that we'll look back on that time and I think we will always have a recruitment issue. So we need to address that. We need to see how you attract people to those localities and you need to and it's not just the country time something to do with it, but also is do they have the right specialist services for people to refer to? I think that's one of the things people worry. You know you like to have somewhere that you can refer to closer by, so I think that that is something that we need to look at. But to my mind, I mean those people going around saying we've got enough dentists. They just don't want to work in the NHS.
Speaker 2:There is a point to be made about the attractiveness of the contract, but if your argument is that people who've left it will never come back, which is effectively what they're saying. You know it's really hard to pull them back. Then, by virtue, you need more, right? Because if they've gone they're not going to come back unless that that's not a one way street. So I think they will need more, you know. But also we need the system to be reformed so we can keep more, and that's why the other sort of the main bulk of the arguments that I make, which is we need to make the environment that dental teams work in really, you know a lot, a lot safer and a lot less hostile than it is right now.
Speaker 2:You know the number of sort of hours and working years that we lose because people have chosen to retire, people have chosen to change their working patterns because they find the working environment too stressful. Dentistry has always been stressful, you know. But there has been a missing link, probably in the last sort of, you know, 10 to 12 years, where it has become the issue, where we've become very defensive in how we think, and that's because of what's sort of come about. You know, most associates my practice is still writing notes throughout their lunch hours and I'm sure the logging in afterwards just to top up, you know it is. You know, the level of note writing that we have is incredible. Most of it actually is irrelevant and doesn't defend you at all, but we have felt compelled to do so. So during the pandemic, for example and I don't know whether you did this, but I'm going to guess you did Did you write at the top of your notes that it was COVID threat level three or four, and that the CDO letter that arrived and the PPE one?
Speaker 1:Who does that?
Speaker 2:The rest of healthcare just got on with it, right, you can. You know you have a system. You follow that system. We all chose to write these huge template notes which, by the way, if not adjusted, lands you in just as much trouble. You can't find what you want and we've all gotten into this because we felt defensive and think if we don't do it, someone's going to knock, knock you for not doing it. So I think that that area needs to be tapped into. You know we need to know what, what the correct standard is and what the threshold is for when that standard hasn't been met. That would land you in trouble.
Speaker 2:The regulator, because it's not the oh, that shouldn't have happened. It is, you know, way below that standard. And people make, you know comments about how things are. But quite often there are colleagues who write, you know, expert reports, there are colleagues that advise us on these things, that are saying this it's, you know, it's not right, and and. And you know there are people that also have used the regulatory system by weaponizing it. You know we knew, during the pandemic, the practice, sometimes it's partnership disagreements, sometimes it's financial disagreements, and we need to make sure that system is right so that it is a sort of just culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting because I think before we went live on air we talked about this and there was an astonishing stat that you told me that only 52% of the complaints that go to the GDC are by the patients, so which means that a significant number are by other people, which is astounding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I think it's 52% was 23 to I think 45% to 21, something in that region. So, but only about half comes from that. And I think sometimes we have to look within ourselves, you know, when it shouldn't be the case, that things that happen very routinely. It seemed to be something that other clinicians doing something wrong. You know, people having a socket that hasn't healed the way that it is, it should, should not be seen so as as been. That's going to be something right.
Speaker 2:We need to have more ability to know that actually, effectively, we make mistakes all the time and we need to build a system that that mitigates against those and and be able to to know when, when something that that shouldn't go wrong has gone wrong, and then we need to be able to learn and see how, how that all pans out. But we, we end up in quite a kind of almost adversarial kind of system and I just, you know, sometimes, when I see what people have written and say, look, you know doing, you know having a a complication is is just part of dentistry, it happens, it's part of healthcare, part of surgery, you know, you know so. So I think we need to get in there and we, we need to pull together and the point I keep making, you know, is that not one individual, not one organization can do this. I think the profession's got to have wholesale culture change and recognize that.
Speaker 1:I think the interesting thing is, obviously the threat comes from the people that you work with or around and obviously, being a dental associate and I know it's something that obviously Shazia Ahmed has set up a group and he's talking about and I did it was part of an engagement with the NHS about changing the role. You know our thoughts on whether the associate should be salaried or not. Is that something that is in the pipeline or is up for consideration or not?
Speaker 2:really, I think they're definitely, they're definitely looking at and considering it. It's not directly in my home in my sort of work history, but it has passed. Some reform is definitely something that they they want to see. There was a lot of stories, wasn't there, about mistreatment to staff and I remember, you know, having been approached for this as a sort of clinical lead in our area to to sort of address some of these when we was hearing about some people wanting to get rid of staff etc when they had an obligation to keep. You mentioned Shazia. In fact I was asked to speak to her by NHS Midlands because she'd been writing, trying to get petition, you know, for the rights of associates, which was great for her to do so, because you know that was what was reaching me and and and then I wrote the letter out to them it was just the Midlands area at the time, you know, saying how important it was for you know practice owners to make sure that that staff were remunerated according to, you know, the spirit of what we've been told should be done, especially when they've been supported. We also ran some workshops actually, where there was certainly a difference, you know, between how some associates were treated and some weren't, and and there was a particular almost an inequality, predominantly sort of, even sort of foreign qualified dentists, I think, in some areas were being treated very differently and some of the the behaviors now has come back. You know, because, as as I was trying to point out to colleagues, even I said, you know, things will restart at some point. You need staff. You can't, you can't get to some of the time and need and then think later on I'm going to be able to recruit them back. So, yeah, so I think I think that was that was a.
Speaker 2:That was a really challenging time and I fully appreciate, you know, the. We have private dentists that didn't feel they were being represented, with associate dentists that didn't feel the rest of where, dental care professionals that didn't feel that they were being represented, and so there was a. There was a lot of issues surrounding whether the system was supporting it. I think, overall, if you look at the financial package for supporting practices, for NHS practices, going back to that, it was really pretty reasonable and a lot of support went into the system to basically keep the practice, you know, sort of still viable for when things restarted. So yeah, I think that that that is that that was one of the.
Speaker 2:You know, there were certain parts of the pandemic at a time that I don't think our profession covered ourselves in the log glory there and and, but the vast majority did continue and do well, you know. But there were certainly some major outliers of where people would be mistreated and and it's something that we need to see. So going back to sorry, your core question, which is I think the NHS would like to see some kind of terms of engagement that would make it a sort of almost like a minimum standard. So if you have a GP model and I fully appreciate, with nothing like a GP model, a GP can can have their patients seen by nurse practitioner, a clinical pharmacist, etc. The that that's up to them, who they choose. But the terms of the engagement between the two is is actually something that the NHS has overfueled off.
Speaker 2:I think policymakers would like that to happen. Whether it's easily achievable, though, so I have to say I don't know, but that that's what they would like, because they heard that, and I think we need to get evidence together. It's a bit like, you know, when everyone's saying that dentists were closed and not open, etc. We need to see, in the cold like a day exactly what, and not let a very small minority of issues swing the entire policymaking. But we need enough to certainly defend people who who found themselves really quite vulnerable, you know, but because of the situation that we've been placed in. So it's a tricky one, but I think that the ambition would be they would want to do something about that, but I don't, I don't envisage it being something that will be nailed in the, you know, next transfer reforms.
Speaker 1:One of the things some people are talking about is obviously increasing foreign dentists coming over, perhaps working as therapists or being registered as therapists rather than as dentists, and obviously being able to to to work within the NHS. And there's some talk perhaps I don't know whether how much truth there is in this, but there is some talk that eventually the UK graduates may be pushed out of the NHS to make room for the, for the for the foreign trained dentists. To commentate those jobs Is there?
Speaker 2:a truth in that? There's certainly no, no truth in that being engineered. No, not at all. And in fact, the therapist route for dentists to register was closed on the 8th of March this year, so that that is no longer even the route. No, the conspiracy theories, no, I mean that it is true to say that the the system for me, the system you know since I was six, would not have worked if there wasn't a huge influx of foreign qualified dentists into the system.
Speaker 2:As I said, if you look at that sort of, that sort of almost 10 year period, and if, if you are, if you even accept it was, it was one to one, it wasn't, it was nine out of 10 years to a more coming in, it was quite clear there was a, there was a shortage of workforce, which is why I am almost amazed when I hear the we've got enough dentists in the country. You know, it's quite clear we haven't. We've barely seen a huge increase in number of dental school places. The population has massively increased and each time people keep thinking, because of the drop in disease, suddenly there's going to be lots less work just hasn't come about. It might come about at some point in the future, but no, I don't think that's been engineered, but I think that I think that there is some truth in that the space is filled for people coming over into those roles, chiefly NHS roles.
Speaker 1:One of the things that obviously we're talking a little bit about and I feel I've had a lot of people talk to me especially our foreign trained dentists that and then arriving here and being exploited and they've been exploited predominantly by corporates as well and then it's very, very difficult because either they're being made to sign contracts where there's significant tie-ins or they're even having to pay to help them get performer numbers and things like that. I mean, is the NHS doing anything to help those kind of individuals?
Speaker 2:So I mean, at the time I think the NHS didn't see, you know, didn't see that as being it's sort of remit.
Speaker 2:It had sort of health education in England, looking at the workforce, and it didn't really decide. So that's why I'm telling you there isn't well, there wasn't a conspiracy theory, is the middle of trying to engineer it. It just simply, you know, it was very much. This isn't our bag, this is up to them to provide us with the workforce. So I think that that at the time was true. There's no question.
Speaker 2:There were stories leaking through about a lot of this going on, about incredibly low rates of pay, about mentoring charges being incredibly high and how people were being mistreated. You can use exploits. There were some very strong words and when we ran those workshop, there were some very strong feelings coming from those individuals. So, and that was all based around how people could get on to that performance list and that actually this year has been has been changed, in that they no longer have to pay to to get on that performance list and also it's now done via a sort of structured conversation. So there will be some who are pretty much ready to go, who could get through the process within two, three, four months. There are others that will take a year or more, but what was happening at the time was everyone's taking a year.
Speaker 2:The exploitation is. I think nobody's ever collected the data, but it was something I was really aware of. I was being told that was happening, and it's really difficult things to evidence, though, but sometimes, you know, I did quite a bit of sort of practitioner support when, when I was sort of in in Lincolnshire role, and, and you know, some of the stories were absolutely heartbreaking, and again, I think we need to establish what the scale of that was. I think we shouldn't tar the entire process with just because we've heard a handful of that, even though it's incredibly hard on those individuals. So I think in these, yeah, in these clear lines and and it was interesting that you know, obviously, the, the, you know the department of health looking at you know whether it's possible to what kind of international group might happen, and in conversations with dental schools from abroad and there's an abroad that the issue of support is definitely one of the main things. So they actually have heard about people being exploited in this and the other area.
Speaker 2:So I think that we need to consider whether there's these senses of dental development that will be coming along on stream in parts of the country, whether that provides the support for people coming in, because I don't think it is right to airdrop someone. I mean, you know we, we in Lincolnshire we used to have, we've had recruitment, so this goes back ages. It was a Spanish recruitment drive at one stage and you know the idea of finding someone who's just qualified in a dental school in Madrid and airdropping them in in a I won't name a part in Lincolnshire. I'll get into trouble with someone, but you know a road path of Lincoln is just landing there and going right. Get on with it when, when you know it's, it would be difficult to get someone who you know lived in Birmingham to move into that environment, who's First language is that and everything else. So I think that we need to think about the support structure that we have in place. But the therapist route is closed. There's no, you know it's no longer an option for people to come in.
Speaker 1:So obviously just wanted to finish off by looking at the future in terms of how you see yourself as well. I did ask you before whether you'd consider the role as a CDO. Is that something that you'd want to do at some point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get asked this an awful lot and I mean, I have to say I've just changed my working hours quite significantly in order to take on the interim role and I, you know, I've always sort of said to my wife that this is something that we would have to see exactly how I cope. And you know, I'm three weeks into this, three weeks into the sea. I mean, if you're saying, would I consider it, yeah, I would certainly consider it and think about it, but it really depends for me it's about whether I can managed to achieve some change in the position that I hold. As I said, the limitations are clear to me to see. Not everyone understands that they are there. If I think that it is a role that I can use to make some positive changes along the way, then yes, I will do. But if, at the end of this interim period, it looks like I've been able to achieve absolutely nothing with it, then no, I do have some very significant options around the corner and everything else.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to be coy, I promise you. My wife and I have these conversations and in terms of the practice as well, as I said, I've been there my whole practicing career and obviously I had to speak to the staff and everything about really downgrading the amount of clinical time I was doing. So, as we stand at the moment, it's been okay, I have to say, the first month. There's a lot of things running parallel, but it's been okay and, as I said, if I see it as a position that we can manage to achieve some of the positive changes which I think most people that know me know exactly what it is that I'm trying to achieve there then, yes, it is something that I would consider applying for, but there will be and as I keep telling you, many, many runners and riders for that, but I'll survive, okay, whichever way it goes.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. What I wanted from you was also leadership advice and obviously one of the things the frustrating thing is, I've not really been engaging with the profession until the last 18 months, since when I set up my coaching business and wanted to engage. So I don't know, obviously, the past history, but one of the things that that's clear to see is, especially on social media, there is a lot of frustration, anger, divide, bringing people down, talking disrespectfully about each other and things like that, and do you think we could ever have a profession where we're a bit more on the same page or a bit more together or a bit more wanting the same, creating a sort of positive culture within the profession? Do you think that's possible?
Speaker 2:I think it is and, yeah, I recognize what you say. I would say that if you look at it, actually the numbers of people that do that is not huge, but they do dominate that space and social media is not just our profession. I mean, if you look at anything that they possibly put out, I know you just look at the comments and it's all there. So that is us reflecting society. Apart from the qualification, I don't think they vet dentist for any kind of character sort of traits or flaws or anything like that. So we will have that. I'm reassured that the sheer number of people that do that kind of thing, even though they do dominate space, is not absolutely huge. So I and that is part of the thing that sort of drives me is you're trying, really trying to change that culture and in terms of you're saying leadership, I believe in a distributed sort of leadership kind of model. I believe that it's everyone's responsibility to show some of that and it doesn't matter about the position that you hold, and that's the thing that I think people quite often misunderstand. Really you know whether it is possible to achieve change and be able to lead without necessarily holding the position that you think you must you know to push these things through.
Speaker 2:I did say recently, both in an article the BDJ as well as in the speech, that I thought that the concept of sort of leadership in the profession outside of the enterprise hasn't really captured the imagination of the profession, which I still stand by. I just don't think it has my business part still think I leave the practice and do some kind of I don't know some kind of charity job or something out there. That's the way that he sees it. But but yeah, I mean I I've had quite a few people come to me because I suppose it was known that I had a bit of a portfolio kind of career going. And yeah, I do think there's real hope and I I hope to drive that to be able to get a formal, positive angle. And that's part of the issue why it? I'd have an easier life if I just shut down all the social media accounts, but I'm not willing to vacate that space entirely.
Speaker 2:I'm sure there are people within the, the organization, that would be far more relaxed if I didn't have any of that. I'm sure that's the case. But as I keep saying, look, I, I, I recognize I can't, I can't kind of answer everything and and and be reactive to everything. But I'd like to think that I'm not vacating the space, you know because, because this is my profession as much as it's anyone else's and yeah, I mean you know things that you're doing and others are doing. Recently, you know, obviously the pandemic sort of brought things to the fore, but I think that's really crucial and I think it should be. You know, everyone should have a part to play in that and I have good. But I have to pre warn you you don't know me, but, but people often think that I'm ridiculously optimistic. So I'll always see, I always think things will turn out in the end, but I definitely do think that there's real hope that we can change that, and I've made it part of my work to try and change the culture.
Speaker 1:I think it's. I think it's fantastic Because obviously we're going through some really, really challenging times, especially within the NHS. There's a lot of criticism, there's a lot of of the cost of living, there's lots of strikes, there's lots of negative things happening, and it's times like this where we do need leaders like yourself trying to steady the ship, trying to reassure everyone that things will be all right and, you know, the future is bright for, for for dentists.
Speaker 2:Well, it helps. I think it is. I do think it is, and you know I wouldn't swap the career I've had with any of my peers. You know, do you think?
Speaker 1:this happened by chance, by accident, or do you think you actually did you ever envisage this role at any point in your life?
Speaker 2:Oh, no, no, there's a genuine story. I told you about seeing who was applying and then putting my throwing my name in that. No, absolutely not. No, no plans. And it's interesting you say that because last year we had a clinical fellow who joined from from FM and then part of our clinical fellowship scheme and I I arranged an event. We had people coming to speak. There was the regional chief dentist in Midlands and then there was the postgraduate dental dean that's come in, the president of the college and all that. Do you know that there was? I didn't speak, I just sort of sort of compared the whole thing, but there was about six or seven of them that you would recognize if I just ruled off their name. Not a single one of them had planned the path that they were thinking, just fell in from one drawer.
Speaker 1:So that I mean, I know it's a small sample, but I wonder whether this whole thing that you, you set a goal when you were five years old and and you know, and you you turn into the Tiger Woods, but I think subconsciously there was probably a thought that I want things to get better, I want to change something, I want to make a difference, and that what I'm saying is it might not be new conscious thought, but it was subconscious and I think you know, even like yourself, like now, you kind of on the surface kind of thinking, you know what I would really like to make a change, I would really like to make a difference. I would want to have some kind of legacy where I've made things for the better.
Speaker 2:I think you're right. I think that probably is at the core, but I think charting a path and planning the next step and everything is not something I've ever thought of. And and yeah, if you'd spoken to me, you know, sort of two weeks before I was asked about sort of applying for the interim role, I probably would have given you the answer that my wife might divorce me and I'm not going to go anywhere near that, which is probably the answer I did give to people, and you know she still thinks I'm mad and doesn't really understand why I would want to do anything like this.
Speaker 1:It's a lifetime opportunity. I think it's great. You know what I mean. If you don't, don't take it, your regret it kind of thing. So why not just say yeah to something you know and see if it works out? If it's not for you, at least you can say I tried and did what I could and did my best.
Speaker 2:And that, in fact, that is the attitude each time, which is I'm going to do this, and the reason I'm going to do this is because I can't then say I didn't try.
Speaker 1:And that's the issue.
Speaker 2:So you just move on to the next thing. But, as I said, you know I, so I'm pretty well known people within our profession and none of them had charted that their way through. So this idea that you you've got some wish in the future and I really value as well, I mean the supervision of clinical leadership fellows, both nationally and in the regions, and there are some great people. In fact, you know, if you run into an area, you want people to come on to this with you and I would be happy to come with them. There are some fantastic fellows that I've dealt with over the years and you know people like Shazia, you know, has got a story to tell you know about, you know what she's done from from virtually no no platform at the time, and how they've created and so so keep that in mind If you're running, you know, short.
Speaker 1:I have asked her and she says later. She's always saying later, so maybe the next series. I have asked her a few times.
Speaker 2:I would love to maybe do one of these where we bring in all these people that have come across, who at the younger end of the spectrum, who have seen the value in that and actually doing great things in there in what they're doing. I think would be really good to do that at some point, so I might tap you up at some point and say, look, we need to do this again.
Speaker 1:Sure, no problem, you're always welcome on this show. Are there any lasting thoughts? You want to leave the viewers of the show with.
Speaker 2:No, nothing in particular. I mean, it's been good just having a chat and you know I've pretended that there isn't anyone at the other end, so I'm hoping that's somewhat true rather than you've got a whole lot of people that just listened to me dribble on for about an hour, but hopefully you found it useful.
Speaker 2:As I said, I think it's important to communicate out you know sort of intent and really what the limitations of the role is in terms of what can impact, but also I suppose hopefully people will recognize the aim is still good at the end of the day in terms of what we're trying to get.
Speaker 1:Excellent. I think my message is to everyone watching that let's get behind Jason and let's try and support him and help him. He's not the villain here. He's trying to do his best. He's one of those. He's managed to infiltrate this role and he's very personable. He wants to engage with us, he wants to talk to us, he wants to make things better. I think it's time the profession just got behind you and supported you. So thanks for watching, guys, really, really appreciate it. A final episode on Wednesday with Laura Carr Actually, laura Hickman Carr she's one of my biggest fans on Facebook and really going to enjoy that on Wednesday. So take care, guys, thanks for watching and I'll see you on Wednesday evening. Thanks, guys, take care. Thanks Jason, thanks Bye.
Speaker 2:Thanks very much.