Ever wondered how a dental coach navigates the trials and tribulations of the industry, especially when he realizes dentistry isn't his ultimate calling? That's exactly what renowned dental business mentor, Grant McAree, shares with us in this insightful conversation. We delve into his early journey, his experiences with partnerships shaped by his father's influence, and how mental health plays a critical role for middle-aged men in the industry.
Education and business don't always go hand-in-hand, especially in dentistry. We learn from Grant's personal struggles as he moved from being a dentist to becoming a successful entrepreneur. He shares key life lessons from his ventures in Penzance and Scotland, and the unpredictable nature of the dental world. The discussion shifts to the business side where Grant opens up about establishing his practices, the need for appreciation, and how to maximize potential in dental practices.
Have you ever pondered about the changing landscape of dentistry? Grant provides a profound insight into this, discussing the evolving role of dental nurses, the impact of social media, and the need for better income streams to ensure a fair pay for staff. He emphasizes the importance of professional training, the current NHS crisis, and the factors that contribute to a successful dental practice. We round off with a fascinating chat about using shared interests to start conversations and make a difference in people's lives. Grant's story is a wealth of knowledge, personal experience, and industry insights that you wouldn't want to miss.
Ever wondered how a dental coach navigates the trials and tribulations of the industry, especially when he realizes dentistry isn't his ultimate calling? That's exactly what renowned dental business mentor, Grant McAree, shares with us in this insightful conversation. We delve into his early journey, his experiences with partnerships shaped by his father's influence, and how mental health plays a critical role for middle-aged men in the industry.
Education and business don't always go hand-in-hand, especially in dentistry. We learn from Grant's personal struggles as he moved from being a dentist to becoming a successful entrepreneur. He shares key life lessons from his ventures in Penzance and Scotland, and the unpredictable nature of the dental world. The discussion shifts to the business side where Grant opens up about establishing his practices, the need for appreciation, and how to maximize potential in dental practices.
Have you ever pondered about the changing landscape of dentistry? Grant provides a profound insight into this, discussing the evolving role of dental nurses, the impact of social media, and the need for better income streams to ensure a fair pay for staff. He emphasizes the importance of professional training, the current NHS crisis, and the factors that contribute to a successful dental practice. We round off with a fascinating chat about using shared interests to start conversations and make a difference in people's lives. Grant's story is a wealth of knowledge, personal experience, and industry insights that you wouldn't want to miss.
Hi everyone, welcome to episode 11 of the Diary of a Dental Coach podcast. We've had some phenomenal, phenomenal guests. There's just not enough time to get them in. In fact, you know, last week we actually had three episodes. Our last episode was Bob Affleck. He's from Dental Coach USA, he's based in the US and he described to us how he's embedded a coaching culture within dentistry in the US. We had Stefan Poulter, who talked about masculinity and suicide and how we can help men and men's mental health, and then, previous to that, we had Dr Raid Ali, who is the owner of three dental practices in Cardiff and is an implant mentor. Amazing, amazing people. We only get the best guys on the show, so I wanted to bring the best people. In fact, next week I just have an important announcement We've actually got the interim chief dental officer on next week, so I'm quite excited about doing that podcast with Jason next week. So, without further ado, welcome to the show, grant.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, pleasure being here.
Speaker 1:I think the whole dental world know of you, or know about you. You're very, very well known as a business mentor and I really, really like some of the things that you talk about. There's not many dentists who understand business and marketing. You're definitely one of them who definitely understands all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, being well known is not always great, is it? Because you know the haters all hate. So I suppose I've probably got a mixture of people who know me and for different reasons. You know, I think the most important thing for me was just to be truthful, just to tell the truth and, you know, not trying to paint dentistry and business, as just you know, just golden and easy, but also be able to just say that you know there are rough patches and to be able to be honest about it, and I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:With regard to you know, you were talking earlier about mental health. I think it's really important to talk about that, particularly amongst middle-aged men. I think that I think it's good to have a little clarity and add a little bit of honesty. And that's basically where, you know, my saying of the ugly truth came from. It's just, you know, I'm quite happy to talk about the truth. You know, about bits in my life, and if it makes it easier for someone else, you know, great, you know, and then my journey's been worth it, you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We've already got some people commenting, so we've got Hassan McGeary. I was saying always inspiring to hear Grant, very inspiring, we definitely are, oh, yes, very. So you've got some supporters already, but you know that's a relief. So tell us about yourself, your childhood. You grew up in Kettering, east Anglia, is that right?
Speaker 2:Well, we moved a little bit around. My dad was a dentist. My dad joined, had a lot of partnerships in dentistry and I think in those days the partnerships, well, I still think it's the same today. I always say it's very hard to find the antidec in dentistry because it's a rare. It's a rare find to find two dentists that start out as friends, become business, business partners and then remain friends. You know, it's a rare thing and I think that when we're not taught business at dental school, I think it's quite a journey. Some people go on when they become partners. So my dad had quite a few partners and then it would split up, then my dad went on his own, then he did another partner, so we moved around a little bit.
Speaker 2:So we moved from England to Scotland, then we went back down to Penzant and then I went to boarding school in Penzant because I think that I was well, I was failing everything and I was doing all sorts of naughty things and I'd probably gone to prison or boarding school. So my parents thought, well, boarding school is the right place. So I ended up at boarding school for three years in Tavistock, sort of a short throw away from Dartmoor prison, just to remember where I could have ended up, so you know. So it went to boarding school and then went into podiatry, which is basically. I did a degree in feet because I did a senior. I got a senior dean geography in English.
Speaker 2:So, really, school. I didn't get school, so I've done no sciences. I still haven't done any sciences, but I managed to scrape my way into property and then I managed to get myself into dental school. So you know, it's sort of been a meandering path to get to be a dentist. But you know what, the biggest respect I've got for dentists who pass that exam because, jesus Christ, it's probably the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life is pass the dental degree. It was, you know, fourth year. I remember going through to my mum and saying, look, I can't do this anymore, so she's got to hang on, you'll get there and bugger me.
Speaker 1:Well, what impact did your dad have on this? Because it seemed like you got first hand experience very, very early on to the dental world, as well as the business of dentistry and how business operates, and did he influence influence? What impact did he have on you?
Speaker 2:Bloody massive. I mean. I think that even up to you know, when I, when I saw my dad in the way he reacts to partnerships and me, jesus, they did stab each other in the back, I mean, and for me it was not doing it. You know, I have people along the way who want to be a partner of mine. Not a chance I've got people throwing me money.
Speaker 2:When I started my practice in Plymouth, I mean that grew so quickly. I mean I was 29, I didn't have a bloody clue about anything and there was this beast that was growing. I had about 30, 40 staff and I didn't know what I was doing. I really did not have a clue, and the staff that were with me at the time will look back and go you didn't grant, you didn't have a clue and I really didn't and I didn't have to deal with the problem. So you know, at that time there were a lot of people who were going. You know, I want to put money into business and they were like 50, 100 grand and I just said no, I didn't want a partner.
Speaker 2:And I think that served me well. And all the way along, you know, I've considered it and always I've always backed out or it hasn't worked out. And yeah, I just me and partners. I don't think would would work. But saying that I have got a partner now but that's outside dentistry, that's in the, my software business, who I trust implicitly. So I think for me I have to know someone and trust them. You know 150% before I even consider doing it. But within the dental world I don't think I'd ever want to have a partner.
Speaker 1:I think, I think the key here is, I think that your father having these relationships really impacted you, because it meant that you you found it hard to trust people, and and rightly so, because until you've been burnt you don't really understand. You know you can be best friends with someone, but it definitely doesn't make you a good business partner, like you said.
Speaker 2:No, no, and it usually that friendship goes on the back burner, doesn't it? I mean, if you know your partnership, your friendship will always, always come second, because that partnership comes first in the part and the family, and your own family, your own, you know your own blood. You want to put the, the, the, the, you know the tea on the table and you will. You know you will screw your partner over if you had to. I mean, I know that we all are all quite flurry as a profession and we like to help our fellow man, but you know, saudi, if you are struggling, you have to look after yourself.
Speaker 2:That's your responsibilities. Your responsibilities is the home bit, and I think the way dentists are paid, the way we remunerated it doesn't help the the way we are supposed to interact with partners. So you know you have to. You get the biggest cases, or you're trying to advertise and more people will come to you than your partners, for instance, or the nurses may like you more and might like working with you more, or you might use more equipment, or you might go on holiday more.
Speaker 1:I just feel as though dentistry and the way we're remunerated doesn't help, and I think you know, I think, like in anything in life, when money, when there's a money transaction involved, even with family, this changes the relationship, and it does do change. I think it's important to remember that, like you said, you have to have 100% trust. So tell us about what was dentistry? Like you said, you a little bit struggled in your fourth year at dentistry, was it? What aspect was it you found challenging or difficult?
Speaker 2:I thought do you know what I remember? When I went to dental school I was ahead of the game because I'd been working as a degree before, so I was almost oiled up to it and so I'd done three years already and I paid an awful lot of squash and so whenever I got stressed by it, I would then just go and play a game of squash. It was fine. But then I did my back in in third or fourth year and the fourth year was always the difficult year in Dundee and exam after exam after exam and it did. I remember it got to the point where something snapped and I thought I don't think I'm going to be able to do this.
Speaker 2:I got to my third, seventh or eighth year studying and if you tested my IQ, it really I'm not on the high level. I mean, you see some of these people online Dominico, who leaves them in there super intelligent and I'm just at the bottom end of the scale. So I had to parrot fashion everything. I had to learn it, parrot fashion. I didn't necessarily understand it. So by the time I got to fourth year, it was really. I almost became unwell with it, with things like depression. I got anxious and I wasn't right. Things didn't make sense. Some of the people were doing all this for I managed to scrape through, thank God. But it was scraping through by knuckles and thinking. I remember I had to put the books away and go. I can't look at another book and so who helped you during this process.
Speaker 1:I mean, you mentioned obviously you went to your mom and it was my parents.
Speaker 2:My parents just said look, put the books away and let's see how you go. And yeah, that's what it is and it worked and I just managed to get through. If I failed an exam, I wouldn't have retaken it, I would have gone. That's enough, you know. That's enough for me, but yeah so it was my parents really.
Speaker 2:So I lived at home because I had to go back to live at home. So I returned home. So I left home at 15 in boarding school and then went back home again when I was 22 to 27. So it was probably a culture shock, more from my parents than from me, but it was all that that was mixed in and the amount of work that we had to do to. As you know, you might be one of those really clever folks that could just get down and pass your exams Half-kissed off the plan, and you know.
Speaker 1:No, your story really resonates with me, and it's kind of a similar situation for myself as well. So after you graduated, did you feel confident to go? I mean, I suppose you had your dad anyway there who could help you out. What was your journey or your next plan, or did you have a plan?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, because I was, I really loved being brought up in Penzans. I mean it was easy. I'm not saying I smoke drugs, but it was a very easy way of life down there. And as a 15-year-old kid, I mean, you know, you would just go to the beach, you would, it was just easy. So I thought, all right, I'm gonna go for that easy life, I'm gonna go back down to Penzans and it was dead, it had gone, all that. And you don't realize that if you chase a childhood dream, that dream is never there, you know. So everyone had left and it was desolate, everything, all the shops had closed down, there was loads of drugs. I mean it was really it was. It almost hit a wall Penzans.
Speaker 2:And I remember I would go to sleep at night. I mean it's so mad. I would go to sleep at night and wake up with the jolt, because I remember an x-ray or an x-ray image or and you know this is gonna make me laugh and I don't know if you'll be able to understand this, but I couldn't understand and I kept asking my boss about this and it was probably just maybe, when I struggled with anxiety, I don't know. I just couldn't understand how to finish a crown margin, measually or distal, when there was a large MO amalgam. And I remember that and it was such a problem for me and I kept saying, no, look, if it's a deep MO amalgam, where'd you finish it, where'd you finish the margin? And these little things troubled me and I couldn't get to sleep and I was worried about you know, if it was really deep, how far are you supposed to go down to get the crown? I mean, it was stupid. I realized that. You know, I didn't even think about the taking the amalgam out, just these small little problems. Or if you saw an x-ray, how did you do the post prep? And what happens if you missed a bit and go? Oh my God. And I just thought this, you know, and it was a noop Meani said one day a lecture, bless him.
Speaker 2:And he turned around and said not everybody should be a dentist. And I thought, christ, maybe I'm not supposed to be a dentist Because those first few years were just like a cloud. You know, it was a bit of a, but I knew I wanted to do business. I knew very early on I wanted to do business. I knew I was good at selling. I knew that I knew that. You know, dentistry wasn't my first business, so I knew that I would be good at that and I just needed to scrape my way through my VT ship to be able to start what I used to say to start my life, I suppose because I knew that that's where I was destined to be is to run a business.
Speaker 1:No matter what that business is. You know what about the entrepreneur and panorail journey? When did that begin? Because you mentioned you had a different business before dentistry.
Speaker 2:Well, do you know? What? Do you know? I can go all the way back to 11.
Speaker 2:I used to go to the golf courses and I used to sneak around, you know, when they, when, when, when they've got the driving range. The driving range was always next to golf course, next to fields, where there are, where there are, you know and how to do, because they're the farmers and it's usually the hay, and I used to crawl through it because the balls wouldn't be able to be retrieved. So I used to collect all the balls go home. They always used to mark them in my day, so they knew which balls were which. So I used to get a Brillo pad, shine them up and go and go and then sell them on the golf course the rich Americans.
Speaker 2:And so I learned very early on that if you went and you had a limb, they'd give you more money. So I'd limp along, and then I thought, well, let's go one step further. So I'd have a myself in jeans, rip the jeans. So I thought I was almost homeless and they'd give you more. So I thought, well, this is great. So then I ended going along with a stutter. So if you stuttered, dirty jeans ripped, it was a winner, and so I learned that if you terribly you can't do that in dentistry, though, if I learned that it was, it was how to sell, if you could almost put your yourself in the eyes of the other person. So if you, you know, I realized that if, if I could get them to to feel sorry for me, they would then give me more money and it had not made a fortune from it.
Speaker 2:You know, I ended up swimming in the lakes with snorkels and masks on. I mean, you can do it now, but you know it was trying to find your way into someone's soul or into their brain, to find out why they want to buy from you. I suppose I still do that. I still look to see. Why are they? Why is this person in the chair trying to buy this Invisalign off me?
Speaker 1:Why do they want it?
Speaker 2:What are they wanting it for? And and when you work out the reasons why someone is wanting to buy from you, did you know bloody anything's possible. You know anything is possible and I think I learned very early on as a kid. But if you can master that, then you know if you're trying to sell a metal-free crown, they probably don't give a shit if it's got a black margin. You know we sit there and I used to start off going no black margin, it looks really but they might have cared. You've got to work out why they want to buy and I think early on I know that and that's, I think, how I managed to do different businesses as I went along life. You know that's what I did. I think I've kept with that skill.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. We've got a little message from Mike Marcelo. He says he loves watching your podcast and he's asking that you come into the mannequin party tonight. The what party? The mannequin party tonight.
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't clue what the mannequin party is.
Speaker 1:Okay, that must be some personal joke, I don't know that's awesome.
Speaker 2:I don't know how many people are watching this. I've got to be careful of it.
Speaker 1:So did you go out and work with your dad at the start, or how did your journey in dentistry start out?
Speaker 2:Well, my dad set up a couple of practices north of Dundee which were the schemes, and the schemes are very, very rough. So you know you're talking within a small area, say a mile, two miles, three miles, they'd be like eight, nine, 10,000 population, you know. So I mean rough as shit. I mean I remember my dad was working on day one. You know he built the practice day one and there was someone getting a right shoe in outside his practice I mean really a real shoe in and he'd said to his nurse because he always employed the nurses from the area so they'd have insider knowledge and he's all got to go and stop him and the nurse went, you've got to leave alone. And it turned out that the bloat was that was getting a right shoe in. He nicked the grandmother's whatever it's called down here get a little tab for the money and you get it on welfare. And so he nicked it and he'd taken it down the pub and tried to sell it, and so the sun came along and he was giving him a shooing out there.
Speaker 2:But you know it was so rough and I would have considered staying up there. So we had a couple of practices and I could have joined him up there. But you know, I just, I think I felt I just wanted to move on to do it, to do it myself, I think, to come down back down to Penzance and probably stay around the area where I could go surfing and all that sort of stuff, no-transcript. When I was up in Scotland, braveheart came out. Have you seen that movie? Braveheart? With this accent, you know, with this accent they hate the English and my, my mate got headbutted outside the cinema because he was English from Braveheart. So, joking aside, I think I felt more at home in England, within England, but I could have stayed there. But I did consider setting up practices in the schemes in Scotland Because I thought that, because at that time?
Speaker 1:So did you have your full support of your father with this setting up your own practice separately? Not?
Speaker 2:financially? No, but obviously financially they paid me through dental college. But you know, with regard to setting up the businesses, yeah, and I still, I still, you know, I remember it was probably about a year and a half ago I'd still phone them and you know, and do you know what it's like when you run a business? I mean, sometimes you can be walking on air, can't you? You're down, you're down the car garage and you're thinking this is going to be brilliant, I'm loaded, and the next minute you're broke and you may as well not bother turning up to work and you be looking at it and going. I've worked all month and I've got £2,000 less in my bank than the month before, and so I've.
Speaker 2:For now, you know, I go to my old man, I'm going bust. The business is going down the pan and it would always be. Look, you know, you've got to look at it over a longer period. You can't look at it month by month. But the problem with my nature is I was even looking at it on as a day by day thing, you know. So I was looking at am I taking enough money over that day? And that can be self destroying, because some days are really good and some days are bad and you always remember the bad day that you might take. You know a couple hundred quid. I mean, I went to work the day, made 84 quid and I'm like, oh, there's no point, but you forget the day before that that you made, however much money.
Speaker 2:But you know, and dentistry, the problem is, dentistry is very much up and down. You can be on top of the wave one minute and you can be at the crest of hell the next. Really, you know, and it can drop so quickly, you know so quickly. I remember I saw a I saw God Tom Hanks on TV the other day and it really hit home what he said.
Speaker 2:And he was asked his advice of what he thought about life and it was stuck with me and his quote was it will pass and everything passes. You know, one minute you think you've got it sussed and you've got your on top of the world and you're going to be, you're going to be an alternate success, but that passes as well. And the next minute you think you're as low as ebb and you think this isn't going to pass. But that too passes and you know it's just. It was a really interesting interview and that has stuck me because I think things do pass and my, my, you know the business I do just now. I feel everything's going really, really well and that too shall pass. You know that will change.
Speaker 1:And responding to the. I suppose things and and all storms pass as well, the good and the bad, but we we kind of have to remember that there's always good times after the bad times as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell us about how you set up these six squat practices, because obviously you know it's quite a brave thing to do. I'm guessing it evolved over a period of time.
Speaker 2:This Well, I started my first squat practice was a podiatry practice, actually a property one. So when I finished property I went up to dentistry and I started a squat practice in Dundee and then that helped me pay myself through dental college. But that was very much the old style of of squat practices. You know, it wasn't. You didn't have social media so I had to use print paper, print ads, so it was more. You know, that's where I learned to do all the upside down ads and all that sort of stuff in, in, in, in the, in the, in the local press. So I learned how to do the old way. And then I set up a couple in Plymouth that was. That was when I had two. I amalgamated them both and it almost become a super squat.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's when I really didn't know much about building, running a business. To be honest with you, I don't know if I still know that much about running a business, but I know who to ask and I know when something isn't isn't going well. The one, the one in Topshop I have now I amalgamated one from Exeter. I set up one in Exeter and which we'll talk about in a moment, if you like. I was set up one in extra on the main street, and then they bought another one which wasn't actually a squat practice and I'm now going to make them all, and then I sold them all to Portman in the end, but the Exeter one was.
Speaker 2:It was interesting because it was more really of an experiment, so I must have set it up on the main street and it was a. I probably did it for about 140 grand, the whole, the practice entirely. But I was running in between the two practices, and so then it worked out that if I amalgamated them both, the amalgamation of them both together would have been is worth more than the two separate ones. And so that's when I amalgamated them both and then I sold them all to Portman. So, and now I'm back to being an associate again, with probably the idea that I will, might build one more, I might have one more round in me, maybe, maybe, but my wife's like that, maybe, maybe. I'm not that. I think I probably will at some point.
Speaker 1:So these squat practices, were you working in them at the same time, as well as running them, as well as managing them, as well as doing everything?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a really good question. I don't. When I did the one in Exeter.
Speaker 2:I built that and I was also working the one in Topsham and running in between the two was killing me. I started at half eight in. I would do a day and then be up there till half seven at night and it was just a tea straightening practice. So it was. It was. You know it was good income. And then I started taking a couple of dentists on up there and it just didn't seem to gel that.
Speaker 2:The actual associate market. It didn't seem to carry through. So when I put the associates in there I looked at the finances and I thought, well, I can do that, but I'd need to still go there to make them both work and I thought I didn't want to do that anymore. And you know I was half killing myself and I thought it's not worth it because I had young kids at the time. So I considered selling Topsham and working in the way in Exeter because it was great money, because it was it was a squat practice but it was dedicated really to things like Inman at the time in Visalign, so I could have done either. I did consider selling Topsham at the time but I ended up doing them, but I ended up actually amalgamating them both, which was the best move really, but I did consider selling one and staying in, staying in my newest squat in Exeter.
Speaker 1:So tell us about this interesting dynamic. There's a lot of topics, you know. A lot of people talk about this the principle versus the associate and how you can maximize that relationship. Because for a long time I would say for as long as I know there's always been this associate versus principal kind of relationship and and this obviously myself included I've experienced quite a toxic atmosphere that can develop between associates and principals. How can we, how can you, what recommendation would you give a practice owner who's got associates? How can you maximize their potential and potential for the business, and what tips can you give practice owners in particular, and then likewise for associates, how can they choose the best practices for themselves?
Speaker 2:You know, I find I find I do find dentistry and a very odd profession. I think we are all and me definitely included we're an odd bunch. I think it's very different from law, you know, if you say a lawyer will go and work for a group of lawyers, but I think I think with dentistry we've got heads down for an awful a lot of the day and you know it's whether you can bring your head up and start looking around you and seeing what you appreciate. But I think that with regard to I've now become back to being an associate again and I've seen it from the associate side. But I've been a principal for, you know, 25 years. But back to being an associate again.
Speaker 2:For me I just want to be appreciated, you know, appreciated for the skills that I've got, whether it's marketing, and if I'm not appreciated I'll jump ship. It doesn't matter about the money and associate can do well anywhere and for me it's always been. Now I realized that me to stay and be an associate will be being appreciated by the principal and that's a funny thing, but that's a personal thing, you know. And being appreciated means I don't get crappy composite or I don't get stuff that's, you know, after a day to I get a decent nurse. I think appreciation is has been my biggest wake-up call for being back where I am as an associate and I think if you can appreciate it more.
Speaker 1:I think the mentality practice owners will have is that, well, you get paid for your job anyway, so why do you need appreciation? And then there's this battle of, well, we pay you X amount and I've had it myself where we're paying you this much, you're the highest paid associate in the practice, et cetera, et cetera, and that's rammed down your throat. Then they are. And every time you ask for something you know and it can cause a lot of friction between you know, principals and associates.
Speaker 1:My one of my goals is to try and change that dynamic and you know, some people say, well, it can't be changed because you both want two different things. And my thing is I think that you can if you work together and actually identify goals for each other. And sometimes, yeah, you're not the right fit, sometimes you just don't gel, you just don't like each other and it just doesn't work, and that's absolutely fine. You know that's life, you know that's happening in every business. I think my issue is is dentists like to? You know, like you said about the start, and this is a culture that probably I started for a long time, where they stab each other in the back, and that's something that I really, really dislike and I think it's something that you know it should be called out and we should be able to try and help change that somehow and change that dynamic between the principal and associate.
Speaker 2:You know, I think it's life, isn't it? Forget dentistry, forget the dental business. I think if you appreciate each other, you know, wouldn't it be nice for the associate to come down, sit down in the room with their principal? The associate sits the principal down and just says I really appreciate what you do for me, I really appreciate the fact that you give me great composite, you give me a good nurse, I appreciate the fact of what you do for me here. But you wouldn't get that, would you?
Speaker 1:Because one of them is gonna get a bit nervous.
Speaker 2:The other one appreciates the other one too much. So I think they're gonna be taken alone off. So I think it has to be appreciation. So if I ever did it again and I ran a practice, I'd run it very, very differently. You know, and I don't think I have to say I don't think I've appreciated or showed my appreciation to the dentists in my time and I look back and think, oh God, I could have done differently there. I could have been slightly differently, because it was all about the money. It was all about they have to be able to come through and earn enough to be because, look, you know, I know now, I know for a fact, I am more as an associate than I do as a principal.
Speaker 2:So for all those associates out there, I did own more as an associate than a principal and I haven't changed my working environment at all. So I've gone from a principal with five, six, five, six associates straight to an associate and I earn more and there, and that's the God's honest truth. So, and I know, since I've done that and I've not changed anything, I know that it's fact that as an associate you can earn more than you do as a principal, if you haven't changed anything. So I'm talking about the repainting of loans and all that sort of stuff that principal has to shoulder, but I don't have the same stress, I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:My wife would tell you oh my lord, you have so less stress now. Now you're not. You know, now you're not on owner and she's like what the hell do you wanna do it again? But it's better than drugs, apparently. So you know, I do want to do it again, I do want to run the ship again, probably. But I think that, yeah, you do earn more as an associate than you do as a principal, unless you go big time and own many, many practices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that obviously I want to do personally as well is for everyone is trying to introduce a coaching culture within dentistry, and I think that can start with creating leaders within a dental practice and empowering each other. That's something that I feel really passionate about, and I think one of the things that I would say is that, cause we're an odd bunch and sometimes we have I didn't mean that I didn't I feel bad.
Speaker 2:I've said that.
Speaker 1:No, no, I kind of get it because some of us aren't the most personable of people. Some of us just don't like talking to each other. Some of us just have a way to stress, to even have these kinds of conversations or even go to subjects, and I think one thing I've realized myself is that sometimes we can misread people very easily. So say, if you've got a stressed principal who's always stressed, you know, the last thing they want to do is have a conversation with an associate about materials or about pay rise or about something else.
Speaker 2:And I try to get quite stressful. They should, because you know that you're absolutely right there. But you know you should do that because, when it boils down to it, I'll never have the end point as an associate as I did as a principal. You know and, yes, you don't earn on a month-to-month basis what the associate does, but bloody hell, at the end of the day you've got a hell of a lot more to sell and that gain comes more at the end and that build comes more during. And that's what I will go in with a different attitude next time.
Speaker 1:I mean, do you like you I?
Speaker 2:don't speak to many dentists.
Speaker 2:Well, I speak to loads now but as a principal, I didn't want to speak to many of my competitors. I had no interest in it really, you know so. But it's nice to be able to connect with dentists now. But you're right, I think that if there is a suitable mentorship and be able to have that sort of approach, I think that's really healthy. And I know there's a private, there's a chat down at the Black Swan, he's doing it, armad's doing it, and I think that's a great idea to be able to mentor private dentists, because I think that people are sort of pushing the NHS to the side this mentor thing. I think it's brilliant, a great idea, healthy.
Speaker 1:I mean, one of the things we've recurring themes that we've talked about on this podcast was the fact that the younger dentists aren't clinically competent already, or there's a feeling that they're not as skilled as perhaps the older graduates and there's less clinical exposure. And some people, especially older dentists, kind of laugh, you know, when they say, oh, why am I doing the mentor? For what's the point? And I find that really, really sad, to be honest with you, because it's not their fault. That's the reality of it. It's not their fault. It's the fact that they haven't had the right exposure, they haven't had the right clinical environment. And then you're compounding it because they've just started out in their career, learning, learning, learning the business of dentists and, like you said, it took us many, many years to learn. But to then compound that by doing that, I feel like he's wrong and I kind of disagree with these dentists who almost laugh at these young dentists who who perhaps do struggle with certain things and struggle with perhaps people would call basics. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:But you know, oh, look, you know it's not a tears net, because you've got a lot of these young dentists that are coming up and you know they're going on courses before they've even finished their dental degree and they want to learn about cosmetic dentistry, they want to learn about the Vise Line and they're probably better with their hands than I am but you know, I think that we do look back.
Speaker 2:Dentists are a bit older. Look back on these younger dentists and go. They're the younger generation. But that's human nature to look back. Our grandparents look on us and we'll look on our grandkids and we'll say, oh then, but in reality, how many fillings did you do when you finished dental school? I was at five to like 10, how many extractions, how many root treatments? I only had to do about three, and that was like 25 years. So has it changed? But do you know what has changed? The thing that has changed is we don't have NHS patients to practice on, so now they want to do the private stuff, they want to go straight into the private stuff. And they want to go straight into the private stuff because of us, because of our generation.
Speaker 2:Going NHS isn't good. Nhs isn't, but I still believe. I mean, my father was 100% NHS and my mum was 100% NHS, so they you know, it was drilled into me that NHS dentistry wasn't a bad thing. So it will come back. Hopefully. I hope they'll change it this five year. I think this five year compulsory treatment for people who have just finished college is a brilliant idea.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I didn't have to do it, but I still think it will sort a lot of problems out. And then these young dentists that we talk about, they'll have the necessary experience. But I finished with you know, I finished with not much experience. And just because you know, I think the critical what we criticize. These young dentists don't have experience. We never had the experience.
Speaker 2:But what I think we criticize them about is they're sort of trying to run before they can jump. They've got to jump before they can run away. They've got to slow down a bit and not necessarily go straight in for the cosmetics and think about how to do a simple buckle composite rather than doing a veneer composite veneer. And there's a lot of courses out there that you can jump those steps and do easy treatment, whereas you know in five, 10 years time they wouldn't have had the necessary skills to sort the problems out. You know, like all these stents, that you can do full veneers on. I think that you know in the future these will come back to bite them because they haven't learned how to do simple. You know buckle filling and I think that's the only criticism I'd have of the younger dentists. But you know, they've passed their exams. I love it I love. There's a couple of lads I'm not gonna say who they are and they're online and they're like YouTubers.
Speaker 1:And I've seen their posts. You know what?
Speaker 2:I bloody love them. So what? Let them do it. Why hate? Haters will always hate, they say. And I think, look, that's, we've all got to live in this world, we've all got to have we're in a box, we're all gonna have our bits in the box, we're all gonna be the separate areas and they just cover that area and they're just bloody good at it. And, if you know, people are very, very critical of them and I'm addicted to watching it. I love watching their stuff. It's some cringeworthy some of it, but I don't care. But you know, and I think that we all I think we've all just got to, you know live a little bit in the profession and realize it's new, isn't it? All these new people coming up with all the social media? It's pioneering.
Speaker 1:It's made dentistry look sexy. I'd say you know what I mean. It's kind of you know and, yes, some of it perhaps for some people is a bit, perhaps far-fetched, but you have to dream big to achieve big. So I kind of you know, I watch them as well and I kind of look at them with admiration because I can see that this inspires people, because there's a lot of dentists who are now leaving the profession and thinking dentistry isn't great. And I even like the fact that they're inspiring, for example, dental nurses as well, because we all we have to accept we do undervalue dental nurses and we need to make them part of the dental team and give them a more important role, as well as pay them better.
Speaker 2:You know, that is one thing I've never understood and I was so glad to get out of dentistry was dental nurses get paid so little, yet they could be sitting next to someone who's been paid so much and yet that person who pays so much can't do without that person being paid so little. That is just one part of dentistry I'll never quite understand. I think there'll be balances coming, you know, but they are going to be able to get more money for the work they do and that's, you know. That was another reason actually I got out of dentistry, as in being a principal, and you know, I did feel that there were changes coming and I think there's more changes coming. I think dentistry is going to evolve radically over the next you know couple of years hence why I won't set up a squat till I know what's going to be happening. But I know these changes will occur and that's not to make anyone frightened. There'll be any fear tactics. I just think it's part of evolution. There's going to be a change within dentistry.
Speaker 1:One of the things obviously for practice owners is the cost of wages, you know going up, associates wanting more nurses and employees wanting more and less piece of the pie for the practice owner and I think the only way to counteract that would be to work on increasing the income for the practice and the revenue for the practice, because that way you can, everyone's happy because everyone's getting a bigger slice of the pie.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean, I think that's what Portman did. They increased the fees and then obviously you're right, you increase the fees and then you can feed it down and pay the staff more, and I think that's probably one of the ways to do it. I think that what I've done, I think that dentistry wise and associate wise, that there is a mentality that 50% is the benchmark. But I think a lot of, I think I struggled as a as a as a principle, to explain there is a difference between 50% of nothing and 10% of everything. You know it doesn't matter you haven't quite got that 50% but if, say, you get 40% of a huge amount, it's better than 50% of nothing.
Speaker 2:But I think there was a mentality all the way fed down from my, you know, my parents generation, that we are, we're on 50% and usually if you are on 50% and you aren't grossing more than 15,000, you may as well be given a fiver and told not to turn up. Turn up for work because that's how much you're costing the principal. So they're paying you 50% and you can't gross more than 15,000 a month, they may as well give you a fiver and telling not to come in because it that is, that is the long and short bit. That is the reality of it. So if anyone's on 50%, they are. They are so lucky, especially if they're not grossing more than 15,000 a month.
Speaker 1:Wow. So how do you make it? What advice would you give the young dentists then when they make? Because one of the things I think is I feel like there's a lot of waste of time courses out there and there's a lot of money being generated and not enough, not enough proper mentoring and not, not, not, not enough proper coaching as well, I would say. How do the younger dentists make better decisions? Because we're very easily influenced by either our peer group or people who we just see, who we think are successful people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you know, that's a really good, good point. I mean, I the, the, the course is that if you're asking me what courses I would recommend, that's that's probably a different question, maybe, but the no.
Speaker 1:I'm just trying to say how do you make better decisions? Because you mentioned about gradually improving and getting better and obviously people are just going out and going into private practices doing the composite, bonding and Invisalign, not really learning some of the basic skills of dentistry and then obviously running into problems later on and also perhaps investing in the wrong courses.
Speaker 2:Yeah as well. I mean I think I always think that if you're going to go on a course you obviously see who's running it. I mean I booked on a course Wales well good is his course for implants down in the Eastman. So you've got the Eastman. You know, I didn't know a lot about a whale but he's a super chap. And so I did a two year course with, with, with M's implants. So you look at the Eastman and you think, right, that's clearly a good hospital. So two year course has got to mean something.
Speaker 2:I also did IAS course with Prof Ross Hobson, bloody great teacher. So I again I looked at he was a professor of orthodontics, a real professor of orthodontics and you know he was. It was IAS, was is a really good, recognized company and it was longer than a weekend course. So I wouldn't I'm not saying it's wrong, I wouldn't, wouldn't necessarily go straight for a weekend course in a, in a, in a, in a car factory or in a you know wherever, wherever it is, or an airport or whatever. I would, I would look at who's teaching it and basically how long it is and the reputation of the people who are teaching it. I mean I, you know I went on Ramsey's course two day course in orthodontics Unbelievable, I mean really. Anyone who does orthodontics. They need to do this. I promise you IAS with Ross Hobson for 18 months and then go on Ramsey's Invisalign course. My God, that is it covered done. You don't need to do another course.
Speaker 2:So you know, it depends on what. I suppose it depends on what you want it to do. I mean restorative, I wouldn't really know. Again, I look for a professor who has got the reputation. Rather than doing a quick weekend, let's slap it out and see how I can do this quicker. That worries me because I think you know the question to me. What would be my advice? It would be just slow down, a bit slow down, learn. Learn to sort of put the seeds in, learn to grow from the seed and not necessarily go straight for the tree and go list this out quickly. I can do it. This is how fast I can do this treatment. This is how much I can get for it. And you know, the faster I do it, the better it's going to be and the easier. And that's not the case. I just think you have to go back to grassroots. I think it's you know. Learn how to do it properly and take it, take, take time, take time to do it.
Speaker 1:But where do you see the future for dentistry then? Because obviously there was an interesting question posted on your group about Mr Grass, greener privately, etc. And you obviously said yes, definitely. How do you? Because obviously NHS is is major crisis at the moment, obviously for practice owners, for for everyone there's a recruitment crisis, obviously double practices up and down the country thinking is it worth us still being NHS? And then obviously there's a predominantly NHS practice has got huge contracts who are just thinking there's no other way, we have to continue with the NHS because that's perhaps the patient demographics etc. And that's all we can do.
Speaker 1:So how do you, how do you see things play out? And obviously we're moving in this era where I would say that we're moving towards more and more aesthetic and cosmetic dentistry being performed compared to ever before and people are now more and more interested in having their teeth done, which is which is very different to perhaps the landscape five or 10 years ago. And, as you know, there's been a massive increase in income or revenue for private dentistry and everyone wants to get in on the app. How do you? How do you?
Speaker 2:see this progressing Well. I remember back in 2007, that's when I that's the super squat I had about 30 star, that's 20,000 patients and we I went to a meeting and they were talking about the UDAs and I went right, that's it been it. So it's been overnight done and I was on the front page of the paper and you know dentist dumps, 16,000 patients. I may have been in my jag with a cigar hanging out my mouth, it was just horrific, but it didn't do me any harm. So I remember that that changed back in 2007. And I had a feeling that it was going to change. So I was probably one of the first bigger practices to go private in the area. And then then we've obviously got this next, this next one. That's taken quite a while. Hasn't it really from 2007 to this point in time that the UDAs have managed to survive? Now, when I say survive, it's taken its toll.
Speaker 2:So there is going to be a change and I don't think any government will allow it. I mean, it'd be political suicide for any government to go. Dentistry is done there, just no one will do it. So there, there will be a change. I actually think the change will be five years compulsory dentistry after dental school. If you get your fees paid for, I think that will be it. And then you get then paid an income to look after patients. And then you'll find the private people. Suddenly, the private one who's doing private will go God, there's all these practices doing NHS. Now, all these patients will drift away. The prices all have to come down and so there's going to be I think there's going to be a massive shift in dentistry in the next few years.
Speaker 2:Can you imagine, suddenly all these practices are now doing NHS. They've got a couple of NHS dentists who have just qualified. The next five years they're going to be there. They're going to get all the NHS clients, all these private clients who aren't providing a brilliant service. They're charging 150 quid for a checkup. There's something that we go. Well, I'm going. You know, nobody cares. Everybody thinks that they're these patients. Stay with them because of our commitment or because they like the practice and they've got snazzy smiles. They will not. The majority will drift towards the NHS and all the private prices will then have to be balanced, and there's always balance in life, and just now there isn't imbalance, isn't there? There isn't imbalance with private care. You can, I can open up a squat tomorrow and it would be packed.
Speaker 1:So it's either we need to get balance, and balance is on its way, but do you think that's fair Like, obviously, if you've graduated, to have to dedicate so long into NHS dentistry? Because what about going abroad, what about these other things? Because it seems like you're being tied into something that perhaps you don't want to.
Speaker 2:You know that's it. That is a good point. But you've also got the choice to pay for the fees, haven't you Go to America and it costs you $380,000 to do dentistry. You come here and your fees pay for it and everything you can choose not to. I don't mean five years.
Speaker 2:When we graduated we had to do a year now, and when I say had to, I didn't even realize there was a choice not to do a year. So I just presume VT was compulsory, but it was if you wanted an NHS number. So it pretty much was compulsory because there was no such thing as just private when I graduated or there was a very limited amount. So okay, let's do two years or three years, not necessary five years. But I think that if you want to pay yourself through dental school, then fine. But if you get the government pay you or subsidize you to go to university, I think that you could do your time afterwards, like like GPs, like two years in hospital. You do two years in practice. It just to me, it just makes sense. I don't I don't necessarily mean I agree with it, it just makes sense to me. Not five years, god. Five years is like prison sentence.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:But now people are coming straight out of uni, aren't they? And going straight into private practice, and that balance isn't right. I don't think there's something about that I feel a little bit uneasy about. I would have done that. I'd have been straight into private practice, I wouldn't cared, I'd have had sleepless nights, stress, I'd have read the therapist about it, but I would still have done it. You know, I would have probably skipped the IT.
Speaker 1:David Breton says my stint in NHS dentistry set me up perfectly for private practice. Yeah, a good NHS clinic is key in a low UDA target.
Speaker 2:I agree. That is so true, david. I mean, that's that is absolutely right. I think that it does set you up and it set me up. It just taught me how to do a cramp breath on that amalgamage. I think it's important, I do. It's almost you, just you, just you just got to stick out and get some, get some experience. I think I did it for about two years after I finished I graduated. How long?
Speaker 1:do you think somebody should wait before setting up their own practice? Then oh.
Speaker 2:I did it. I do know it doesn't matter. I did it eight months. Eight months out of ET, I started looking. I started looking the minute I was graduated to see where I was going to set up.
Speaker 2:I don't think that matters. I think that I think that you need to make sure you've got good people behind you. I mean, there's things that I, you know, that I experienced running a practice, that you know I shudder, you know I call people nurses and dentists sleeping to go awful. I doubt with it terribly. You know I just didn't know how to deal with that part of the business. But you got to learn. You're not going to be. You might be a little bit wiser five years later, but are you not wiser in business if you're going to do it?
Speaker 2:My feeling is when people ring me up and go, I don't know what I should do. I want to start a business but I would say, well, look if there's, you've just got to do it and you just got to skid along and give it a go. I don't think there's necessarily a good time because you can get stuck in a rut, you can start doing dentistry and you never get back to. You just got to do it. You know, if you think this is the time there's. No, there's no good time, you just got to do it. And so if someone's setting up now, it doesn't matter that there's a there's a recession possibly coming, then there's Christmas, then there might be something else next year. You've got to do it because it takes a year really, from the idea through to opening the doors. I think it takes about 12 months. People have done it quicker, but the idea to that loans and marketing I think takes about 12 months and we'll be in a different landscape in 12 months time. You just got to do it.
Speaker 1:There's no good time. So in terms of advice, say, if you wanted to sell for squat practice, would it always be a freehold or a leasehold? What advice would you normally give them?
Speaker 2:that aspect yes, that's a good question. Just now I wouldn't do freehold because of I think there's more to lose. I think there's a lot more to lose with regard to if, say, you did a leasehold and you could always get out of it or it always feels okay if you can get out of it. So a leasehold, a leasehold property, you might be able to get a rent for 1500 pounds a month or whatever it is, and then you could put a two surgeries in for what? 150,000, 200,000. I saw someone who did one for about 180,000 on one of my courses. So you could live with that loss.
Speaker 2:But I think if you bought a building and that you're nearly talking nearly up to a million maybe, and that's a big weight on your shoulders. So for me in this economy, I would always lease and then I would put the equipment in with a view to a four-year break clause so you could just remove it all, like I did, and put it into a freehold if necessary at a later date. So I always try and make make. I always would like to try and make life a bit easier if you're going to do your first squat, and that for me every time it'd be lease two rooms in there, job done and then with a four-year breakout so you could leave and put it somewhere else if you wanted to.
Speaker 1:So what are the raw ingredients that you need to be a successful practice, to be setting up from squat? I mean there's lots of different aspects to it. Like you said, the marketing, the advertising, is a big factor right at the start to get the patients through the door. How do you navigate those choppy waters?
Speaker 2:Do you know? The funny thing is you either do and they say location, location, location. It bloody is, if you're going to go and set yourself up in the middle of a part, in the middle of a building site where the houses haven't been built, your marketing spend goes like that goes up I don't know where my camera is goes up, so you know your location. Bad marketing spend goes up, so you've got to make sure you're in a good location so your marketing spend comes down. You've got to have parking and you've got to have parking where you know. Particularly if you're doing implants, you don't want someone you know. You've just given them sedation and they're just drooling all over the pavement, gobbling blood everywhere it's. You've got to have parking, it's got to be visible, it's got to be accessible and you're going to have the population there, and so I think that they're sort of my golden nuggets. If I was, if I was going to do it, going to do it again you've got to have local amenities there.
Speaker 2:So they're the five things I really look at when I'm, when I'm, when I open the squat practice. And I didn't buy goodwill. No, I tell you, I did it. Once I bought someone's goodwill, but it was only for 10 grand. So he was trying to sell it to me. He was going to retire and it was like 120 grand or something, and and then someone was going to take all his goodwill and I said, well, now I'll buy it for 10 grand. It was like 12 months later and I bought it for 10 grand. I just wanted the process of but buying someone's goodwill, so I did buy it once, so I bought. For the rest of time I've just done squat practices because the good goodwill is so expensive, isn't it? I mean, it's so expensive and I think if you do it right and you're in the right place, then you can build, you're able to build it absolutely so.
Speaker 1:Tell us about yourself obviously. I know you do a marketing course and you do a few different things. What, what aspects do you personally help dental practice owners or dentists with?
Speaker 2:well, I've got my the marketing course, which is a day course, and I don't I don't like to over push that, you know they can find me for that, but I mean it's just basically I talk about my experience and just the sort of my mistakes that I made going through. I've sort of tried to look back and try and show how to overcome those mistakes. I mean, I think the biggest one is always the reception. So you know, my sort of, my sort of golden advice is always you make sure that good marketing yes, fair enough, that's easy to do. You either pay for it or learn to do it yourself. You've got to make sure the reception's good and we did 200 mystery shops last, last year, 200, and you know 198 failed 198. Do you know the bugger? Mine failed as well. I own when I owned it, mine failed. So the reception is the work. I mean we've, we've, we've done one and we phoned up and we said look, we'd like to have some whitening. And we heard the nurse going why can't they look on the effing website? I mean, you know that and they are top-notch London, london dentists, you know. So that is, that is the level to where we are. Our reception is the key to our business and yet we don't pay them very well, we don't look after them well.
Speaker 2:The majority so from the patient then goes through to a sort of a management system, so it could be a CRM or whatever, and then it's obviously improve your clinical sales skills and make sure you retain the patient at the end of the day, and if you have all those ticked, you can't fail. You just can't fail. You know, I pick up, or I pick up a lot of patients from a local practice because they weren't responding to the patient, and these are like 40 000 pound treatment plans for implants and they weren't getting back to the patients. They'd come down and I'd make sure they were responded to because the c up, which is why I built, with Donna, robo reception. We built it so the patients can't get lost in the system. So they would get automated emails, they'd get automated consent forms etc. And that's. That is all part of the process.
Speaker 2:To make sure, if you've spent money on that lead, don't bloody lose it. You know it's madness. You know, if you've got it, you've nurtured it. It's even got past your shitty receptionist who is brilliant, and then we're in your chair. You know you're just a little bit along the line. You know you're just a little look. I mean we think that that's where we sell. It isn't. There's that whole chain along the line that's got to be bang on for us, for you to then have those. Have that practice, have that, have that sort of million dollar practice right, you said it's the whole experience.
Speaker 1:It starts with the reception or the first interaction. It's like it's like in life your first impressions of someone really, really does count and don't know if you mess them up. It's very difficult to change someone's opinion about about a person.
Speaker 2:I would love to put up, I'd love to share a screen and show the report of all the ones we've done, and do you know it's, it's, it's mind-boggling. And you know, at the end of in my course, right, we've got a, I put up a really bad mystery shop. I mean, I've made it up this one awful right, and I put I say to everybody right, put your hands up if you can guarantee. That is not your practice and I usually only get one out of 30 people going. That's not my practice one. So how bad is that? That we haven't even got confidence and it's never one of their practices.
Speaker 2:I never do that, but one person out of 30 usually go. It's not my practice, so the other 29 are thinking is that my practice? That's how we hold regard our actual receptionist and that's just a receptionist's key. You know that if I, if and when I do it, do it again, reception will be the key.
Speaker 1:You know, reception and nurse, that would be do you not think like dentists but with and practice owners, with. Just you're just too stressed most of the time to consider because you because you don't give it in that much importance, do you? You're always troubleshooting and dealing with patient problems on the day and dealing with situations so you don't really think about. Maybe at the start you do think about it a little bit because you've not got any patience, but once, once things start moving and things start, you stop thinking about these small but very important aspects of your business yeah, I do know.
Speaker 2:I think you're right and I think that's why dentistry is so difficult to run a business. I remember that, you know I. You know, like I've said in my book, I go to the. I've been. I used to have a towel hid behind the toilet like a towel that I could ring, just because I just got so stressed that I had to engage my body with my brain because my brain was firing and I need to try. So I'd be ringing it in the toilet in between patients because I had to try and balance myself out. You know I've been when I've had to hold my arm from arms shaking when I'm giving a local anaesthetic. I mean, you know I could, I could tell you all sorts of stories that you know it's.
Speaker 2:It is an, it can be an incredibly stressful profession and you know we all have to be regulated. We do. We have to have regulation. I know I am not one to go let's disband the EDGDC, because you know why? Because we're not. We're not going to know what we're going to get. We don't know what's next if that, if we do, and it's going to be the same people who are running it, it's just going to be maybe something different, but I think that when I got a GDC letter and a letter from a solicitor, I just thought my life was going.
Speaker 2:I was in bed at night thinking my life is done, my life is over. You know, that's it, and I'm quite open about it. I actually shit my pants. It wasn't just like a mental thing. I shit my pants because it was sudden stress and I just let loose and it was one of those things that I thought my job is gone, my livelihood, the kids at private school, bloody nightmare, and I thought that is it, that is that is going to be my life gone.
Speaker 2:And I was looking at how to become a crock playlist again. I mean, how crap would that be? Going back to cutting toenails again? So you know it is. You can be up here one minute, like I've said, and you get a letter or you get complained straight to the bottom and how are you supposed to run a business when you're that at that level of stress? You can't, it's impossible. You you'll do knee jerk reactions, you'll be putting out fires, you'll be, you won't be able to be looking on the business objectively and and team building, and that's why I think dentistry is so damn hard because you've got your head.
Speaker 1:Like you're saying, you get head down and you know you got you think it's possible to run a successful business as well as working. I know probably after many, many years you might be able to. But the dentistry isn't isn't the easiest job itself, clinically anyway, and the stuff you have to deal with even is really really difficult. But to then have to make big decisions about your, your practice and and and how you run it, and contact loads of people and delegate tasks and and that whole thing, it never, never stops. And then you you're on the same token, you've got your family alive to try and balance the out which you which you don't have, because if you're a practice owner, you're never off your phone, really, or you're never off having to do something, because there's always something to do.
Speaker 2:I do know I think it is hard. I do think it's hard and I think, but some people do do it, don't they? Some people do it incredibly well, but it did. It took its toll on me. I don't know how you find it. I certainly running a business to get its toll on me. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:It was a buzz, but you can't ever have a buzz in life without the stress. You know. If it was easy, you know this is no good, can't be bothered. I'll just get up in the morning, I'll have my cup of coffee, I'll saunter into work. But it has to have that level of hardness and that level of experiencing hell for you to experience the joy of it. I always talk about the difficulties, but there's incredible joy about building something that's yours, that you have created. It's something like, I say, something better than drugs, because it is when you've built something for yourself and then someone comes in and wants to buy it and you think this is what all the strain and all the stress has been about. I think that's the beauty of it is that you have to have where there's hell, there's always heaven. Running a business is that Sometimes you'll be drilling away and everything's fine, everything's great around you, don't worry about it all good Then. Other times it's bloody awful.
Speaker 1:Did you always have an exit plan? Was this always part of your plan to sell to a person? I don't even know what?
Speaker 2:my plan is now. I don't know what I'm doing next year. I really don't. If there's no opportunities of supportment, I'll leave there to. I've got this robo-reception sash that's going on, which is going massive. We've got about 250 presses on it. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. Every four years I've changed my life. Every four years it could be writing a book or doing a course. That's how I've survived is going right. That's it. I'm going to do something else for the next four years.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Any lasting thoughts, as we bring this podcast to an end, that you want to share with your viewers? Obviously, this is being live streamed onto your group as well, and obviously people are on people. Lots of diverse kind of people are watching this.
Speaker 2:Do you know?
Speaker 1:I just I think it's words of wisdom. It doesn't have to be business advice, just things that you think you know what. This is what you know. I would have told my previous self and this is the advice I'd given life.
Speaker 2:Do you know? No, there's nothing. I, you know, I went through life meandering every four years I'd make a change and maybe slowing down. I think maybe it'd be good to see everybody just slowing down a bit. I think people are very critical about other people and you know, and I think that's that's. That's very sad, that we, that we are so easy to criticize people. You know, like the two chats that we were talking about earlier, I think people are so easy to criticize and they don't realize that they're you know, whoever it is that are going through their own troubles. And we all go through troubles and we don't, I don't think we share them enough, which, you know, some people do, some people don't, I suppose.
Speaker 2:But I think it would probably be to slow down a bit and, like, like you're saying, particularly if you're a dentist, if you get the right course, you that's. I wish I could go back and go right, go on that course and go on that course, and you'd be fine, and it would have been, and I'd have saved myself so much aggro along the way if I'd gone on the right course and got the right knowledge, because knowledge is power and if you've got that knowledge, you can. You can save yourself an awful lot of hassle. You know, and I don't need business, I don't. You don't need to learn, go to. You don't need to get a college to learn business. You know, you can. Just you can learn along the way. But I think we're dentistry. To make it easy is definitely to knowledge is power.
Speaker 1:So how do you look after yourself? Because self care is key here, and being in the right mental state and being ready to whether it is a business, whether it's a thing.
Speaker 2:I've got a cracking wife. I mean, really, I'm one of those people that I, you know, I don't. I don't share my life, my private life, you know I don't post it on social media, but you know, I've got a cracking wife who supports me in anything I do, and I've got my Peloton bike, and so those two are great. You know, if I get looked like I've got a bit stressed, I'm told to get in the Peloton bike for 45 minutes and that's it and that and that sort of regenerates. I think exercise is so, so important and have the right people around, you know. You know, and if you've got a supportive family, I do always for my family, you know, and I let it all go tomorrow for the family as well.
Speaker 2:But until that time, you know, I've really loved meeting all the, all the different characters in dentistry. That I never did when I started out, which would probably be another bit of advice is just to try and get a bit more of a network. But I was very cloaked and dagger when I started. I had no interest in meeting dentists. So it's lovely that you know you've given me the opportunity to come along and I've met you and you're another person now I've been able to meet and so I think you know, I think it's really to you know, make sure you stay connected with people, to know that you know they're suffering or they're struggling in the same way that you are.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I think, being together in a camaraderie spirit within dentistry, we all go through the same struggles.
Speaker 1:Really, it's just we don't like to talk about it and in fact, sometimes those men we like to do a little bit showboat and try and make things sugarcoating, try and make things a lot better. But you know, inside we're all, we're all the same and we all have the same same process. So it's very steady, it's just about. That's why I created a lot of your part of my football group. That's why I created that football group. It was just a way of, rather than having to be awkward and trying to talk to people, finding a common interest and, you know, talking around that. And it doesn't have to be that you share the whole, but it's something that could and obviously regularly I post the positive things on there just to try and get people you know it might be that post that just makes the day or change, changes the way they think and they read something and you know, at least you know you've made a difference to someone's life by doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right, thanks guys for watching and we've got our next one, actually at eight o'clock with Sabah Arif. Thanks, dr McCarrie, for coming on. We really really appreciate it and we'll speak soon.
Speaker 2:My pleasure, my friend and lovely to talk to you today.
Speaker 1:Thanks, guys, thanks, hello, every.