What if the path to a successful dental career led to a tragedy that turned everything you knew upside down? Picture a journey that begins in a modest council house in Scotland and peaks at the University of Aberdeen, where a committed dental professional becomes a Professor. I'm thrilled to welcome Professor John Gibson, a respected figure in the field of dentistry, to share his incredible life story on today's episode of Diary of a Dental Coach.
Join us as Professor Gibson navigates us through his illustrious career. From his early fascination with medicine, academic pursuits at the University of Glasgow, his tenure at the General Dental Council, to his current role at the University of Aberdeen, his journey is truly inspiring. Yet, amidst these achievements, he experienced a tragic personal loss that reshaped his perspective on life - the heart-breaking suicide of his young son, Cameron. As we delve into this deeply emotional part of his story, we will explore the shocking suicide rates within the veterinary profession and the importance of addressing mental health issues openly.
In addition, we’ll discuss the often-overlooked signals of a person contemplating suicide and emphasize the critical role of wellbeing and suicide prevention. Through his own personal experience, Professor Gibson paints a vivid picture of how crucial it is to provide support and community for those in need. We'll wrap up by shedding light on how contributing to society can have a positive impact on our mental health. So, let's get started on this heartfelt, enlightening journey with our esteemed guest, Professor John Gibson.
What if the path to a successful dental career led to a tragedy that turned everything you knew upside down? Picture a journey that begins in a modest council house in Scotland and peaks at the University of Aberdeen, where a committed dental professional becomes a Professor. I'm thrilled to welcome Professor John Gibson, a respected figure in the field of dentistry, to share his incredible life story on today's episode of Diary of a Dental Coach.
Join us as Professor Gibson navigates us through his illustrious career. From his early fascination with medicine, academic pursuits at the University of Glasgow, his tenure at the General Dental Council, to his current role at the University of Aberdeen, his journey is truly inspiring. Yet, amidst these achievements, he experienced a tragic personal loss that reshaped his perspective on life - the heart-breaking suicide of his young son, Cameron. As we delve into this deeply emotional part of his story, we will explore the shocking suicide rates within the veterinary profession and the importance of addressing mental health issues openly.
In addition, we’ll discuss the often-overlooked signals of a person contemplating suicide and emphasize the critical role of wellbeing and suicide prevention. Through his own personal experience, Professor Gibson paints a vivid picture of how crucial it is to provide support and community for those in need. We'll wrap up by shedding light on how contributing to society can have a positive impact on our mental health. So, let's get started on this heartfelt, enlightening journey with our esteemed guest, Professor John Gibson.
Hi everyone, welcome to episode seven of the Diary of a Dental Coach podcast. We actually had an episode earlier this week with Dr Adam Harrison, who is an executive coach and specializes in kindness leadership. Really interesting journey He's had. he's been a doctor and then a barrister and now he's a leadership coach, so he's gone full circle. So, without further ado, we've got a very, very special guest today. It's Professor John Gibson. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you, madassa, thank you everyone. Nice to be here. Really appreciate the invitation. Very kind of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so on this show we obviously journey through your life story and where you are now. So tell us about your childhood. Where did you grow up? what was that like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. So I'm a Scotsman you'll know that from the accent and you know I've predominantly lived in Scotland my whole life, with just one or two small exceptions. And I actually grew up in well. I was born in Ayrshire, so south of Glasgow, and then after that my parents moved to the new town of Cumbernauld, just outside Glasgow, and we stayed there for a while. I started school in Cumbernauld and then my father was made redundant. He was unemployed, and so we moved to again a new housing estate in Kilmarnock.
Speaker 2:So I'm a council house boy, grew up predominantly in rented accommodation my whole childhood and the background behind that was that both grandparents so my grandfather on my father's side was a gardener and my grandfather on my mother's side was a farmer, and so I spent lots of childhood times outside in the great outdoors and that became a pivotal factor in my growing up. So I went to school in Kilmarnock, another Ayrshire town, and then from there went up to the University of Glasgow to do my BDS dental degree, and it was really during my time there that I was inspired by the then senior lecturer in oral medicine, so this new specialty of oral medicine was emerging, which, professor Sir David Mason had really worked the genesis of and was a chair of oral medicine in Glasgow, and then his senior lecturer Phil Lehmie, and then his lecturer Mike Luce, all of whom have gone on to be deans of various dental schools. They were all in the oral medicine team in Glasgow at the time.
Speaker 1:So did you know right away that you wanted to specialise in oral medicine? was that quite early on in your career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think so, and I think the challenge really came as I was doing third year course in human disease in the dental curriculum and I realised that I really wanted to know much more about the medical side of the whole of medicine. But as it pertains to dentistry and so I was inspired to do oral medicine and therefore when I graduated, after working for a while, went back to do MBCHB in Glasgow, qualified from there, did some house jobs in general medicine, general surgery, and then got a lectureship in then David Ray's unit in the University of Glasgow and did you work in general practice at all, or was it straight?
Speaker 2:No. So right through my undergraduate medicine I worked often on a Saturday and so I did general practice in an area of Glasgow and I actually loved doing it. It was a tremendous challenge because it was quite a deprived area. It was quite a challenging place to do general dental practice and I also did one call for the oral surgery service in Glasgow as well as that time, because money was fairly tight, i'm back doing a second undergraduate degree.
Speaker 2:So then I got my lectureship in Glasgow, started my PhD, which was in the glorious subject of orophacial granulomatosis, and so did a bit of clinical immunology as part of that, and then got a senior lectureship in Glasgow and from there went to work with NHS education for Scotland as an associate postgraduate dental dean and from there went to the Edinburgh Dental Institute and worked under Richard Ibbotson there, which was a great time for me, and then went to Dundee and worked with some great colleagues in Dundee. Dundee was a really fantastic experience for me. I worked in Dundee for seven years and then my alma mater of Glasgow called again and I went back as professor of medicine in relation to dentistry in Glasgow, and I was there for four years and then I got the call to go and be the head of school at the new dental school in the University of Aberdeen So were you one of the first to become?
Speaker 1:I suppose did you. Were you one of the first to go to university, coming from a humble background?
Speaker 2:I was so my brother, who is three and a half years older than I am. He was the first in our family to go to university and then I followed on behind that. So that was the framework really the professional framework and I've loved my career. It's been a remarkable career in terms of enjoyment for me and it's allowed me to do some amazing things, go to amazing places and one of the things that I really enjoyed doing so. I worked as a chair of fitness to practice at the General Dental Council for 10 years and I think I probably learned more about dentistry in the round during my time in fitness to practice than I did in any other sphere and I really enjoyed my time at the GDC and learned a lot and hopefully did a fairly decent job of equity in that role, because obviously that's a tough place to do that job.
Speaker 1:So obviously we don't really, as general practitioners, see what goes on behind the scenes and obviously, being working in academic academia and what was that like? what kind of culture is there in that university? because I've heard it can be quite toxic sometimes as well. So what was your experience behind the scenes?
Speaker 2:That's a really insightful question and it's not a question that many people ask. I think you're right. I think universities can be toxic because there is competition and challenge to particularly on the research side of things, to achieve and get grant money and funding and also to have a throughput of PhD students. So there is a lot of challenge in that area. At the same time you have to have a clinical component, so you have an NHS part to your job, and in addition to that there is the teaching aspect of it as well, and the teaching aspect was where I really reveled. I loved teaching. Teaching was the thing that I loved most to do and it's been such a privilege to teach a number of generations of dental and indeed medical students in various places across the country. And in light of recent events and we'll come to recent events shortly the warmth of expression, of feeling towards us as a family from so many areas of the dental profession has really been overwhelming. It's been a remarkable thing to experience and I'm hugely grateful to the dental profession.
Speaker 2:It's a hugely respectable position, obviously specializing in this area as well, because there's not many professors in oral medicine, probably worldwide Yeah we were a fairly select group of people and actually, despite the kind of academic prowess that's supposed to go along with oral medicine, and there are some big names in the world of oral medicine who have been hugely influential and presidents of the general dental council and big authorship and all of that, actually when we get together and have a beer together it's just fun. There are a great group of people and they're such fun to be with.
Speaker 1:Do you think you had a good work-life balance?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I wish my wife were sitting to my left hand side because she would absolutely answer that without batting an eyelid. I probably didn't, because I'm a bit of an obsessive individual at perfectionism. So anyone who's worked with me knows that I operate personally to a very high standard, and I kind of demand that people who work with me operate to a similar standard. That can either be something that people rise to and do well, or it can be something that's quite difficult. I guess I'm my own worst enemy in terms of work-life balance, because I couldn't just do a task, i had to do a task to the highest possible standard.
Speaker 1:I think that's a dental thing. I think all dentists become like that. They weren't at the start. I think there's that sort of ingrained in us and then we just keep striving for perfection, which is great because obviously you're always striving for high standards and doing the best for your patients. We are one worst critic, a lot of the time as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, i think so. Isabelle, my wife has been just such a. I can't tell you how an important part she has been in all that we've done together as a couple, as a family, and she has been utterly supportive in my professional career And actually she should have chewed my ear off periodically and said I could do with a bit more time or the kids could do with a bit more time, but she didn't do that and filled the gaps with great grace and with never a word of complaint. So in retrospect and I'm sure that feeds into some of the discussion we'll have shortly in retrospect I probably didn't have a great work-life balance And although I don't have any regrets about that, i would encourage everyone who's listening in, particularly if you're at a younger stage than me in life and you've still got space to make decisions, then I would really encourage you not to make work the be all and end all of who and what you are. And that's big coming from me. You know that's hypocrisy coming from me, because you know I've worked very hard.
Speaker 1:Did you suffer yourself from any mental health problems prior to this significant event that happened in 2019?
Speaker 2:No, i did not, and in fact, quite the opposite. So I loved helping other people through problems. It's just part of my genetics, really, and so I, you know, bring it on as far as I'm concerned. and then, of course, things changed in 2019, as you've alluded to. So no, well, certainly as far as I'm aware. you may want to ask other people who have worked with me over the years whether that's completely true, but as far as I'm aware, i have had no significant psychiatric issues in the 35 years or so that I was in clinical practice.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So obviously tell us the lead up to obviously what happened in 2019 and how that happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so 2019 will be forever the pivotal year in the Gibson family and it knocks everything else into the shade, both good and bad. So we have three children Malcolm, my eldest, ailey, our middle child, my daughter, and then we had Cameron, and Cameron was. All of the three kids are quite different, but Cameron in particular had always loved the great outdoors and we had that similarity between us And because of where we live. We live rurally and we have a small holding and we've had sheep and sheep and chickens and pigs and things over the years. And Cameron grew up in that environment and therefore at a really early age decided that there was only one job for him and that was veterinary medicine. And there's quite a funny story in there.
Speaker 2:Because we thought, well, we better expose him to something else, just in case he's a bit blinded to vet medicine. So I arranged for him to go and do some medical experience in our local hospital And he was to go for two days. He was in fifth year at school at the time And he went off on day one and came back and I said how did you get on? He said they're indoors all the time And I said, well, it's a hospital, cameron, you know you have to be indoors. He said, oh, i can't do that. He said I couldn't possibly be inside all the time. Hence, instead of causing an alternative career pathway to emerge, quite the opposite it really cemented his desire to be a vet, and indeed to be a large animal vet, which was the thing that he really, really wanted to be.
Speaker 1:The dentistry was never, was never an option for any of your children, never, never, never no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:And medicine really wasn't on the agenda for any of the three of them either. I think my wife's a GP, so I think they've looked at our careers and lives and thought you know what? I'm sure there's something else that we could do instead. So they've all done very different things.
Speaker 2:So Cameron went off to university, went to University of Glasgow and did his five years in vet medicine was enjoyed. It didn't particularly enjoy first year. He didn't like being in halls of residence, but he and two pals from the course set up a flat for years two, three, four and five And life got significantly better And he really enjoyed his clinical years in vet medicine And during that time, decided there was only one career pathway and that was large animal practice. He'd chosen the practice he wanted to work in And he he and a colleague got the two jobs in that practice And he was delighted.
Speaker 2:And so in 2018, on graduation, he started working in large animal vetting And he seemed to be enjoying it. He didn't particularly like long on call through the winter. He didn't particularly like coming weekends taking up with carrying an on call phone or pager, but he loved the job and he kept going at it, huge group of friends, great group of colleagues. And you know he couldn't have worked in a better work environment really, and you know if he were here he would say that as well.
Speaker 1:And so it never suffered from any mental health problems that you know of. No, no I to this event.
Speaker 2:Well, indeed, quite the opposite, in fact, he had an advanced firearms certificate And those of you who are firearms certificated will know that that is quite a robust process, both medically so physical health, but also mental health, and there's a full assessment of that And he'd had that license renewed just months prior to the events of 2019. And so, even from as objective as that assessment can be, it would appear that there were no overt areas of psychiatric distress to him or psychological disturbance.
Speaker 1:He's quite a happy, all of you kind of boy.
Speaker 2:He was a happy. He was a very happy boy. He loved the great outdoors and he loved sports. So he ran Kayaks, klein mountains, he played rugby. He was someone who loved the great outdoors and loved sport.
Speaker 2:We don't really know what happened towards the end of 2019, apart from one possible factor And, of course and I know that you issued a warning in the flyer and the lead up to this So just to let everyone know that I'm going to talk about significant psychological disturbance and suicide over the next 10 or 15 minutes And if that disturbs anyone and causes anyone difficulty, then we can talk about how we'll deal with that towards the end. So we don't know what the events were in the lead up to 2019, the end of 2019, apart from the fact that he had a complaint against him And in retrospect I think that that may have been of greater significance than I had considered at the time. So it was from a farmer who had complained that Cameron had got an assessment of one of his male sheep, one of his tups, wrong with regard to the volume and symmetry of its testicles. I know you're now very glad that you're a dentist, but there was a complaint and it went to quite far the complaint. Eventually there was no case to answer, but it went quite far And as someone who has had a professional interest in helping people through complaints my whole life and during my time at the GDC, i understand that particularly for young practitioners that is a very potentially a very debilitating moment, and so we spent a lot of time talking about it. The practice handled it very well, he was well supported through it And he was told from the outset that the complaint would blow away in the wind. But the individual who complained wanted to pursue it And eventually it did blow away in the wind. But I think ultimately, because it was early days for Cameron in his professional life, i think it probably impacted him more fully than that, than perhaps we realized.
Speaker 2:But the important thing to say, madassar, at this point is having now spent three and a half years in this strange world of suicide and I'll come back to the events that led up to Cameron's death in a second I now completely understand that there is no one factor that leads to a suicide, except with one possible exception, and that's gambling. So the literature suggests that suicides are multifactorial. But for people who are deeply embedded in gambling and the loss of money around gambling and the debt that that in itself can be the only precipitate for a suicide. And again I say to everyone who's listening in tonight and may listen in subsequently gambling is a very insidious thing, and just as all addictions are very insidious whether it's alcohol, drugs or whatever gambling can really suck the lifeblood out of you, and for well earning professional people in particular, there is a long way to fall with gambling, and I've now dealt with a number of families who have lost family members to suicide as a result of gambling, and so I just put out a plea there that if you are an individual who suddenly thinks tonight you know what my gambling has gone too far, then would you please seek help for it, because it's please do that And before it's something that really sucks the lifeblood from you. So we come to the end of October or the middle of October 2019.
Speaker 2:It was the 19th of October 2019. And Cameron had was not on call And he had got up and done a shopping. He'd filled his freezer and his fridge with food for the week ahead And he'd done a washing and left it drying in the flat or in the house And he'd made some treebakes for the practice. He loved cooking and baking And as a regular feature of what he did he would make treebakes to take into the practice on the Monday morning and he'd done that Can.
Speaker 1:I just clarify So the complaint how far had it gone at this point? Had it completed and he'd known that it was over, or was it still under investigation at this point?
Speaker 2:It's still under investigation And it's a slightly different system which we don't need to go into, slightly different from dentistry and medicine. But it had been fully investigated locally and had gone for external scrutiny And, if my timing's right, i think possibly by that time he knew that there was no case to answer. So I think by the time of Cameron's death he was aware that the complaint had blown away.
Speaker 1:Did he discuss it with you after or?
Speaker 2:not, he did, and particularly when the complaint came in at first, it obviously affected him significantly, but that was many months prior And we talked a lot about it. I forced him to talk about it because of my background and because of my involvement in medical legal matters. I really encouraged him to talk about it And I was convinced that he was well supported and that he had worked through it. But I now have my doubts about that And I wonder whether that complaint was of greater significance than perhaps any one of us had realised. But unfortunately we'll never know that, and so Cameron.
Speaker 1:I think it was the lasting impact Because obviously myself, obviously I went through something similar And every time you get communication, perhaps from external sources. It might be your indemnity, it might be the GDC, it might be the people investigating the complaint. Your heart sinks and you kind of think what's this going to be about? What's this going to be about And how I'm going to respond to it. And it can be quite a lonely thing, especially if perhaps people around you don't understand the emotions that you're going through Completely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I remember one of the first cases I ever chaired at the General Dental Council. It deeply impacted me because I saw how much even the white envelope arriving from the regulator or from the defence organisation, or an email or a text, as it would be now, how impacting. I remember this dentist telling us, telling the committee, that she would drive round the block where her house was every night when she came back from the practice because she was so scared of opening the front door and seeing another official envelope And that when she opened the front door and saw one such envelope, she just threw herself on the ground and wept and wept and wept. Because these events are for professional people. These events are hugely impactful And I'm not sure that the public understand the significance of that And, if I'm perfectly honest with you, i'm not sure there are regulators actually understand the full impact of that. So my understanding was that regulators were now not going to send out information to registrants on a Friday, because I'm campaigning for safety for people around suicide And I spoke to someone very recently who got the full complaint, the full information of a major complaint which landed on him on a Friday, and so we've got to do better at that.
Speaker 2:That's really not acceptable. That these complaints land on a doorstep and everyone goes off for the weekend and we're left high and dry to reflect on how this is going to pan out, because, regardless of how minor or major a complaint is, we all think we're going to be struck off. The first thing that you think is this is it, that is, curtains, i'm gone. So We come to that Saturday, the 19th of October, and Cameron, we clearly think, given the events of the morning, he left his house as if he was going back to it. You don't do a washing if you're going to take your life. You don't do a shopping if you're not going to be there the next day.
Speaker 1:I was going to just ask sorry if we continue just about how often would you talk about this complaint? For me it kind of almost completely takes over your whole life, because almost every conversation or conversations can be around this and about this. Quite often, so would you say you frequently talked about it. Was Cameron the type not to want to talk about it? What was it like?
Speaker 2:I think we talked about it a lot when the complaint was received and Cameron shared very openly with us about it. I think then, as the months went by, perhaps we didn't talk about it very much until he heard that it was not going to go forward to formal proceedings, and so I have to confess that perhaps I didn't pursue the pathway or the journey of all of that as much as I would now certainly do. But we certainly had the discussions, lots of discussions about it early on when the complaint came in.
Speaker 1:Yes, we can continue, obviously, with how things unfolded.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:so 19th of October he wasn't on call.
Speaker 2:he did all these things in the morning, went up to Glasgow, picked up his girlfriend, they climbed a hill together, they went to a ceramics class in the afternoon, they came and cooked dinner for both of them, and they went out for a few drinks with friends in the evening And then in the small hours of the Sunday morning, so somewhere around one o'clock. Cameron then took his life, And he left no note and left no understanding in any way, shape or form as to why this crisis or mental challenge, or whatever it is, had come to him. And so the police and ambulance service were called, resuscitation was attempted, but Cameron was declared dead at 3.30 in the morning in the accident emergency department of one of the major Glasgow hospitals. And so at 7.45, two police officers came to our door and brought the news that no parent should ever have to hear ever, And no family should ever have to hear ever. And so they asked if I was the father and next of kin of Cameron, David Roger Gibson, and I said that I was.
Speaker 2:And they said would you sit down, sir, please, because we have some shocking news for you. Your son is dead And it would appear that he has taken his own life And even as I share that with you now I'm three and a half years further on. The impact of it still sits heavily upon me. And, of course, I now work full time in the suicide community and work with people who, within you know, will contact our own charity within hours or days of being notified, and to sit with families, individuals, colleagues and practices and see again, day in and day out, the impact of that unbelievably terrible news that this 24 year old man with everything ahead of him in life is gone And there is no going back on that. There is no Tardis traveling, there's no time traveling to go back and say Cameron what happened.
Speaker 1:What's going on? What was the initial sort of feelings? Was it complete shock, disbelief? Didn't want to accept it.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, i guess it's complete disbelief. It's? you know there must be another Cameron Gibson. You know crazy stuff like that, but you know that no, no, cameron would never do this. This can't be right, but it was.
Speaker 2:And you then have to somehow find your way through telling other members of the family, telling Cameron's siblings, telling grandparents, and trying to get through your own grief process at the same time as supporting others in that grief process. And it was shockingly difficult. And you know there will be people listening tonight who have been up close and personal with suicide And I'm just going to stop for a moment and just say how much I want to acknowledge your grief and how much I want to acknowledge your brokenness. And for those also who have experienced their own suicidal thinking and planning at times and we'll come on to that shortly, I'm sure I just want to say thank you that you're still here And it's good that you're still here. Don't think, just because I've lost my son to suicide, that I can't rejoice in the fact that you who have been through a suicidal crisis and got through that, and the shocking statistics for attempted suicide in the UK we don't actually know that the numbers, but it's estimated that there are half a million 500,000 attempted suicides each year in the United Kingdom, so the number of attempted suicides outweighs the number of completed suicides. And so as a family we then had to go through a really remarkable journey, because so things have now changed, where you can have the body released to you and you can go ahead and plan funeral arrangements, whereas before that wasn't the case until toxicology results and everything came through. So we had a temporary death certificate issued to us which allowed us to proceed with the funeral arrangements. But would you believe that we had to wait 14 months for the correct, the authorised death certificate to come through. And I guess what the authorities don't understand is that you can't grieve fully or properly until all of these bureaucratic things fall into place and then you're left to be able to grieve and do that privately. So this was a really tough time.
Speaker 2:And of course Cameron doesn't just die in a vacuum, and it's not just his family that are affected. He has friends, he has colleagues, and, given that the suicide rate in the veterinary profession is probably difficult to see accurately, but certainly three to four times the national average. And so one then starts to ask the question you know what's wrong in vetting What has happened in this amazing profession, because it is an amazing profession, it's a wonderful profession, a wonderful job. What has happened to make a larger number of people within the profession decide they don't want to be here anymore? And so that was a question that we picked up and had that discussion with the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and he'd opened up a very fruitful dialogue with the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and that has led to quite significant action to make the veterinary profession safer.
Speaker 2:And we're also aware of two PhDs now, one in Glasgow, one in Edinburgh looking specifically at well-being in the veterinary profession to determine has something gone wrong in the vet profession? Is there something that has very obviously gone wrong or is there a number of subtle changes that in accumulation are working to do this? So lots of questions and not so many answers yet. But yeah, that was a tough gig and it remains a tough gig. So even three and a half years further on, we have pretty tough days still. We're still grieving.
Speaker 2:Isabelle and I sat down to have a coffee on Saturday and I had been out in our shed, which is a big shed, with tools and various things in it, and that's where Cameron and I did a lot of for chatting and our speaking, and it just was overwhelmed with the sudden realisation that again, that this remarkable young man, my beautiful boy, was no longer here, and so Isabelle and I sat and cried together at the kitchen table for an hour, and then you put your big boy pants and your big girl pants on and you pull them up tight and you say we just got to keep going and that's what we do.
Speaker 1:Well done. You are really proud of how you're dealing with this, john.
Speaker 2:Well, there's an important piece in the jigsaw that I haven't shared with you, and that is that I guess everyone who's listening in tonight will be aware of the Kubler Ross Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who was the American psychologist who did much on the five stages of grief, or five stages of grieving, and it's been terribly misinterpreted because it was actually supposed to be in a terminal care context before. But it's a good working, a starting point as you think about grief, and one of the major aspects of that process is anger, and anger is a huge thing in the suicide community. But David Kessler, who worked with Elizabeth Kubler Ross and as who is also an American psychologist, said more recently that there are not just five stages of grief, there are actually six stages of grief. So under the Kubler Ross regime, the final stage is acceptance. So you work through your anger, you work through your bargaining, you work through your depression and you get to a place where you just accept what has happened, and I guess that had happened to me, but it wasn't enough for me.
Speaker 2:I couldn't just accept that Cameron had died in this way, and I spent the first two years actively processing and trying to find out as much as I could about suicide. How has this happened? How could this have happened to my boy? Suicides don't happen in my family's. Suicides happen in other families, suicides happens in other towns, suicide happens in other workplaces not where I am And then you're abruptly cold shot and say well, it happens everywhere. And that's the humbling aspect of suicide, that it happens everywhere. And so David Kessler has said there's actually a sixth stage of grief, and it's finding meaning or finding purpose. Now I struggled with the concept of finding meaning, and I still do. I still find Cameron's death utterly preventable, utterly facile and really difficult to find any meaning in. But if I change the word to finding purpose, that makes a whole difference to what I could then do with it. And so finding purpose became the pivotal thing that got me out of bed in the morning. And I guess there's an aspect of this that I haven't really shared yet, and that's to do with my own mental health and what has happened to me following Cameron's death. And so the first year after someone dies, in all circumstances, but particularly this is augmented with a suicide death, it's about guilt, it's about shame, and for a father who loses a son or a daughter, for a mother who loses a son or a daughter, for a big brother who loses a younger sibling or a big sister who loses a younger sibling, there's the question of why didn't we protect them, why did we not see what was happening? And there's a terrible tsunami of guilt and shame which can be utterly incapacitating. And so, as we worked through our first year of life without Cameron, we came to the first Christmas, first new year, first birthday, first own birthday, and then we came to June, and June is significant in our family for a whole host of reasons, but because Father's Day is in there and then Cameron's birthday is in there as well. So we came to our first June, which was June 2020. And Cameron's sorry Father's Day was on the Sunday and Cameron's birthday he would have been 25, was on the Wednesday of that week.
Speaker 2:And I found myself on the Friday afternoon in a shocking place of disarray.
Speaker 2:I was actually cutting my lawn.
Speaker 2:I was cutting grass And one would normally cut the grass longitudinally across the way with stripes, but I found myself going round in circles and cutting crop circles in the lawn And it became a picture for me that my life was just going to go round and round and round and this grief was just going to be with me forever.
Speaker 2:And here's the difficult bit, because, despite my logical brain telling me that all of this carnage that had resulted from Cameron's death could never be repeated, should never be repeated in our family, i made a decision that Friday afternoon to take my own life, because my own grief was so incapacitating for me And I felt I was dragging everyone else down with it. I was so struggling that the logical thing was that I should just go as well, and the challenge was that I so wanted to be where my boy was. So there's a great theological question for us to debate, but I still wanted to be where my boy was and make sure that he was okay. And so, on that Friday afternoon, i made an attempt on my life, and it was a shocking place to find myself, because I had people who work with me, who know me, know that I'm a real go-getting individual. I'm someone who doesn't let things get me down, or at least historically, and you know, people would have described me as a really resilient person, a word that I now hate.
Speaker 1:So what kind of emotions or what kind of thoughts were going through your head in the lead up to this?
Speaker 2:Obviously just that I couldn't live with my grief anymore And that I couldn't add to everyone else's grief in my family and friends by people looking on to see how broken I was and that it would be better if I wasn't here. And I now understand that that is the common denominator of every suicide, every survivor of suicide that I've spoken to and every suicide note that I've read and I've now read several. The common denominator is the world will be a better place without me. And I'm just going to stop for a moment with us And, if I may, and just say to people who are listening in tonight if that's where you have found yourself or if that's where you find yourself tonight, that it's a lie, because the world is a much worse place without you. Even if you've got significant psychiatric disturbance, even if you've got really difficult physical health, even if you're facing a complaint before the GDC or any other regulator and you think there's nothing to keep you here, let me tell you that the world is a much worse place without you And the world needs you to stay, because every suicide is a disaster for humanity. Every suicide brings utter brokenness and carnage, not just to the immediate family, but it's estimated that for every suicide, around 35 people are directly affected significantly by that suicide. That would be colleagues, family, friends, the guy in the corner shop, the guy on the till at Tesco's. All of these people are directly and blatantly affected by the suicide. And so my plea is please get help, if that's where you are at. And I would simply say that if my wife hadn't been a GP, i would not be here, and so I'm hugely grateful for that.
Speaker 2:But I wasn't immediately because I'd made my decision that I was going. And so for the four months subsequent to that and I was under psychiatric care and I wasn't an inpatient, but I was under daily psychiatric care I had to check in on a daily basis. I woke up every morning, pulled the doofy back from my face and thought, shit, i'm still alive And I really did not want to be alive. And that lasted for four months. And then, as a result of talking, therapies and medication and I guess this concept of finding purpose, because that was a huge part of the, of the going forward I woke up one morning and I thought, oh, this feels a bit different today. And that was the start of the, the gradual change into a place where at least I wanted to live again, and so I'm hugely grateful for psychiatric services. I'm hugely grateful for our NHS. Happy birthday, 75 years old today, amazing. And yes, our mental health services are utterly broken and way beyond capacity. I don't know what the multiplier is, by how much we're past capacity, but we're pretty broken.
Speaker 1:But the color, some of the signs and symptoms of someone who is suicidal and how perhaps loved ones may be able to notice these subtle. There's a lot of time, like you said. There's just no clues left.
Speaker 2:That's a great question And thank you for asking, Because, because one of the things that's important to say is that, historically, the majority of suicides have arisen because of a period of psychiatric illness And during that journey people would have said Look, if you feel suicidal, this is who you should contact. Some irritants, 116123 or papyrus or whomsoever. But it would appear that increasing numbers of suicides in the United Kingdom, and indeed globally, are so called spontaneous suicides, where there is no obvious And I say obvious because we need to do some academic work on this But where there is no obvious pre existing psychological disturbance. And that's a very concerning. And in fact, the charity and we'll talk about the can more trust in a second, if we may But the charity that we now run and operate we're contacted on a daily basis by the family of people who find themselves in that sudden and acute psychiatric emergency of suicidal intent.
Speaker 2:And let me just say a little bit about that, because Rory O'Connor, who's professor of psychological medicine in the University of Glasgow and probably the preeminent researcher in this area, particularly in young men, has done a huge amount of work on this And what he showed was that and it was a study published just two years ago, that one in five one in five 20% of young men and women. It's a Scottish study, but there's no reason why it wouldn't be replicated across the United Kingdom. One in five 20% of young men and women up to the age of 35 will experience significant suicidal thinking. So I don't know how many people are on the podcast tonight or who will listen subsequently, but one in five of these individuals, one in five of you listening tonight, will have or have already experienced this crisis of suicidal thinking, And, of course, it's a much smaller percentage. That would then move to suicidal planning, which is when you decide what you're gonna do. So, to answer your question about signs and symptoms, I think symptoms first of all would be a change in your understanding of who you are. So, again, one of the very clear steps that is obvious when you speak to someone who has been suicidal and I would say this myself there's this strange sense that you're trapped and the psychiatrist call it entrapment where the world is moving on at its normal pace or a faster pace around about you, but you feel snared, you feel caught and it feels, classically, that you're walking through glue or treacle, that you can't get one foot in front of the other in any way, shape or form, And for those who are working in high stakes, high throughput professional environments like dentistry, there's often the straw that breaks the camel's back. So you just about think you can hold on, And then Mr Smith says look, my bridge has come out and it's the third time you've put Mr Smith's bridge back in. And today's just the day when you say do you know what? I just can't do this anymore. I cannot do this anymore.
Speaker 2:And most of us walk out the practice and some of us decide to take our life. But what we should actually do is go and make an appointment immediately with our GP, or go home immediately and speak to our spouse or our partner, or speak to the head nurse in the practice and say I really need help. This has just been an overwhelming day for me. Today I need to speak to someone about this. So that sense of entrapment is a very clear symptom And this sense of brokenness I cannot do this anymore. I have no energy left. In that, The diminution of energy levels is an important one. Now, for those looking on, there's an important step in here which we need to think about, And that is that often when people have made a decision to take their life, there is a sudden upturn in emotion.
Speaker 2:So people feel much better about themselves And I could vouch for that myself. So that day in cutting the grass, when I made the decision I was going to die by suicide, I actually felt completely elated. I felt as if my problems had gone. And so there's a danger point, there's a tipping point which so many people sadly talk about and GPs talk about it. Someone will come back in and say well, I've been on these antidepressants for nine months, Doc. I'm delighted to tell you I've stopped them because I'm feeling so much better. Have your tablets back. A wife will say you know, he was so concerned about work, it was overwhelming him. And then he came home on the Friday night and said I feel so much better about work. Monday's going to be a different day for me And he takes his life on the Saturday. So this kind of enlargement of emotional well-being is something that people often see and talk about, both as a symptom and a sign in due course.
Speaker 2:And of course there are other priority groups to discuss in there. So people with bipolar illness. The incidence of suicide is much higher in people who have significant pre-existing psychiatric illness, in particular bipolar illness, And the extremes of highs and lows can be just overwhelming for people And they decide they don't want to be anymore. And I guess there was one thing I wanted to say in there, And that is the use of language is so important. So everyone talks about committing suicide, But the suicide community does not like the term committing suicide because that is a pejorative term which dates back to when suicide was illegal, an illegal act.
Speaker 2:So would you believe that prior to 1961 in England, if you made an attempt on your life and you survived it, the chances are you would go to prison for a few months because it was an illegal act And so we don't like this term. It's a pejorative term. Committing suicide, Much better to say, took his or her own life or died by suicide. And please don't think, don't be scribbling down at home thinking I better get that right. You're forgiven if you get it wrong, but just be kind to yourself. But let's think about changing language because it's actually really important. So no longer are we going to talk about committing suicide.
Speaker 1:So how do you think Because obviously the big factor is men in particular And some of the things that you described it doesn't really appeal to men in a way, talking to people sharing your problems, getting help And even dental visits, i would say statistically is probably more women that attend dental practices or attend health care settings compared to women, because as men we just like to not bother anyone with our problems in a way, and we have that kind of mentality really.
Speaker 2:Well, i guess this goes back to the pre-existing stage, or the stage prior to this, rather, which is about well-being, and my personal view is that well-being falls into two camps. For health care professionals, there are people who are super fit to run marathons, ultramarathons. There are people who are right in there with nutrition and sleep and all the stuff that you do if you want to be fit and well, and then there are people who can't be bothered with all of that and works the thing that takes over their life really. And I guess I'd like us all to find something of a middle ground And I'd like us to do some kind of pastime that encourages physical well-being, which in turn, leads to mental and emotional well-being.
Speaker 2:And I can almost hear the groans up and down the country as I say that, because exercise is just something that some people find real difficulty with. But I'm not asking you to become a champion rower or a squash player. I'm just asking you to think about the possibility of walking around the block at lunchtime and then the next day walking twice around the block and then building up that capability. And there are some amazing publications out there couch to 5K, and for me it was walking, so many people will know that in the summer of 2022, i walked from Lanzan to Johnna Grove, so I walked 1,203 miles in 77 days and had a total blast doing it. It was about hashtag one man walking, a million talking And it was about opening up conversations with families and communities affected by suicide and bringing them together, because suicide is such an isolating thing, and it was great to do that.
Speaker 1:I loved every second of it, but it was also very taboo, isn't it, to talk about suicide or talk about Yeah, yeah, it is unfortunately something that is is not something I spoke to around, Yeah how do you? think not. Perhaps if you've got colleagues who are feeling down or you've noticed some people who are not well, what kind of things can we do to try and perhaps help them? Yeah, or even somebody confides in you that they're not feeling too good about life, and things like that.
Speaker 2:So it feels to me from the literature and from personal experience now, that social isolation is one of the major determinants of suicidal behavior. So people just feel increasingly marginalized. And of course, on top of that there might be the GDC complaint or there might be the whatever all else. It is that Practice struggling financially or whatever it might be. But if you see people withdrawing, do have the conversation with them and take them for a coffee, invite them to your house, meet your family, meet your friends. Don't overwhelm them, but gradually introduce them back into society. And and in that discussion, ask the question and are things so bad that you're thinking about taking your life? and although that seems like a huge question to ask, it's the question that saves lives. It is the question that will pull people back. And just to reassure the audience tonight, you will never precipitate a suicide By asking someone if they're suicidal.
Speaker 2:The literature is very clear about that. You will pull someone back potentially from suicide by asking that question and and you need to ask it twice. So if I were to ask you, madassa, tonight, are you suicidal? You would give me one of your handsome cheeky smiles and say don't be daft, john, don't be daft. And then I would look at you again and said my dad said this is really important to me Have things been so bad that you might think about taking your life? and don't don't soften it by saying You're not thinking of doing something silly, are you? or you're You're surely not doing anything daft? and you need to ask the cutting question Are you thinking about taking your life? and it will save a life.
Speaker 2:So draw people back into Your community, invite them to be part of who you are, take them for a coffee, take them for lunch, take them for dinner, go for a walk with them, ask to meet them at the park on Saturday morning and just say let's go for a walk together, ask them how they're doing and then Open up that conversation. See you, things have changed. You seem much flatter, you seem a bit low these days, and how are things? and open up the conversation and have that conversation with them and There's another really important thing to say here.
Speaker 2:So one of the key players in all of this was a psychologist called dinner, and dinner in 2009 talked about the 11 pillars of well-being and And the. The thing that we get so dreadfully wrong, particularly in healthcare professions, is that we get so engrossed in our work That we think that helping other people is the thing that keeps us mentally well. Well, dinner made it very clear in the work that was done, that You have to do something of value to society outside the workplace To allow that pillar to be ticked or that box to be ticked, and so we have to think about doing things for the common good. We have to think about, you know, being a scout leader. We have to think about being a guide leader. We have to think about doing the kids Rugby, a football club on a Saturday morning or the swimming swimming club heaven forbid at six o'clock on a Wednesday morning.
Speaker 2:These things take it out of us, but it also takes us out of ourselves, and and so the dinner work is very clear that doing something of community value adds value to you and adds value to your life, and that is hugely important in the context of well-being. So all of that together means we're working far too hard on the dental practices or whatever healthcare Facility you find yourself. You need to break out of that, to be more sociable. Particularly guys, spend more time with other men and talk very openly about stuff And say this is a men's well-being group. We're here to talk to each other. Please come and join us And then do something, together or individually, which adds value to society, and that would suggest that that would make us more resilient individuals when it comes to Not just meant to well-being, but also decrease suicidal thinking as well.
Speaker 1:I think it's really important having male, male friends, because I think we kind of a little bit especially friends We can feel like we can open up to and and talk to, and they perhaps Have similar kind of emotions and sometimes problems as well. So I think, like you said, getting together, with, with, with with men in particular for men Can can really be beneficial because you can just have a laugh and not worry about the stresses of life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I you know I've walked a lot with men, not just in the lead up to lands into John O'Groats, but I'm subsequent what I do now. I spend a lot of time walking with men and you know, i I think we're all broken, and I think we're all broken at different levels and the thing that has really come out to me in discussion with so many men are addictions and and that might be work addiction, and I think we need to be confronted with the possibility that some of us are work addicted.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing that's come out is pornography and people talk so freely now After a fact About the issues about pornography and you know they stay up late into the wee small hours and I'm doing some work on the on the practice accounts darling, and you know it's pornography and addiction after addiction, after addiction, and And unfortunately, pornography, pornographic addiction, does lead to suicidality And there's such a brokenness and an emptiness in it and and there's broken relationships in there as well, because pornographic addiction often leads to to broken physical relationships.
Speaker 2:So, whatever the addiction is, and whether it's work, whether it's pornography, whether it's gambling, whether it's drugs, whether it's alcohol, whether it's you're just addicted to yourself and and We need to talk so much more openly. And and I think the amazing thing I've found is that when you break the magic spell and start opening yourself, talking openly with other people, it's amazing how people just say you know what? That's exactly where I am as well. I'm broken too. Let's walk this journey together and see for myself. And let's walk this journey together and see if we can make each other's life just a little bit better, so important.
Speaker 1:I think it's really, really amazing How you've caught with this, john, and How you're getting through this, and what really strikes me is obviously, before we went live on air, you talked about, obviously, the Canmore Trust, and even today You spent time talking to two individuals trying to prevent them from dying by suicide, and it's a really, really brave thing to do, because most people would just want to hide away from it and not want to do that kind of thing, but that's it.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's brave, i really don't. I think it's about this finding purpose thing, the sixth stage of grief, and and and please don't think that I'm some kind of hero. I'm doing something that's a two-way street for me, and so as I try and help other people, just the whole community of being together And helping someone else Is a two-way street for me. It feeds me back again. So I Please do not see me as any kind of hero. This is, you know, i. I give and I receive, because I'm simply part of this great thing called humanity, and and that's where I want to be. That's where I want to be.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And what are your future plans for the Canmore Trust?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a great question. I think the Canmore Trust is is having its own plans at the moment, which is dealing with individuals and and and People who are suicidal, but also the major area which I'm involved in, which is suicide postvention. So working with individuals where there has been a suicide, families where there's been a suicide, or indeed professional practices dental practices or vet practices where there's been a suicide, and then schools, colleges and universities. And In September we have a major training event where we're training 16 new people to go through and and get Certificated to be able to operate In that domain. So we have level one training Where people who are trained will be able to work with individuals and families affected by suicide, and then level two training where it's profession specific, so working if you're a doctor, additional training allows you to work in a medical practice where there has been a suicide. If you're a dentist, you work, or a dcp, you work in a dental practice where there has been a suicide. If you're a vet, you get additional training and work with vet practices. And then the third level is a very specialist area working in schools, colleges and universities where there has been a suicide, because the concern there is one of copycating, which is very clearly documented in the literature And where someone dies by suicide and then someone else goes. Someone else goes, someone else goes, and so dealing with the risk of copycating in Each of these environments is an important skill to develop. So that's where we're growing and we are.
Speaker 2:We have training episode in in september, another training episode in march, and so we just keep growing as as the need and demand is there. And It's just been remarkable, the kanwar trust has only been a charity since january 2022. We've been going for 18 months and, my goodness, we are a bit busy Every single day. We've just appointed our administrator and it's just growing and growing, and growing and I guess there's a need there and so we'll we'll try to to help to fill that need. The kanwar trust can't fulfill all of that, but we will certainly work very hard with colleagues and and other agencies to to do what we can to help this ridiculously sad aspect of of societal life.
Speaker 1:Any any lasting thoughts that you want to leave with the viewers before we finish this podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you Just to say thanks for coming and thanks for being part of my grief journey and the gibson family grief journey. I hope that my own openness and I have no holds barred now at all And I have nothing to hide about who and what, what I am now, and and I would just encourage men out there in particular, to to be open in, in where you find yourself and and to have these really Daring conversations with other men and to to seek help, but also to offer help whenever you can do that, because that is what will save lives, bringing people into community. And then, if you need to ask that really difficult question of Are you thinking of taking your life? and you will save lives, and I hope that you do.
Speaker 1:Thanks, john. Really really insightful chart and really really important chart about suicide. Thanks for watching. guys Take care and enjoy the rest of the week. Thanks, guys, take care. Thanks, bye, bye.