What does it take to truly overcome a Scarcity Mindset and embrace an Abundance Mindset ? We are privileged to have Dr Adam Harrison, a doctor, barrister, and leadership coach, who shares his inspiring journey navigating through life, from growing up in poverty to becoming an entrepreneur. He delves into the critical significance of defining your individual values as a coach, and the need to resist the hustle culture that often pervades the coaching world.
Dr Harrison shares his unique academic journey, being the first in his family to attend grammar school, an experience that ignited his interest in medicine. Tune in as he recounts his turbulent experiences with workplace bullying and his transition from being a GP to a barrister. He underlines the importance of speaking up and the role of leadership coaching in comprehending his inherent desire for justice. Let's discuss the challenges he faced, the resilience developed, and the growth experienced.
Lastly, his insights about work-life balance in different healthcare systems, such as in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand, provide a unique perspective. Learn how Dr.# Harrison's coaching qualifications have helped address workplace bullying, toxic work cultures, and low self-esteem. He paints a vivid picture of his mission to instill a culture of kindness and compassion in the workplace.
Let's explore the power of leading by example in creating a positive and supportive environment. Join us in this enriching conversation that celebrates resilience, personal growth, and compassionate leadership.
What does it take to truly overcome a Scarcity Mindset and embrace an Abundance Mindset ? We are privileged to have Dr Adam Harrison, a doctor, barrister, and leadership coach, who shares his inspiring journey navigating through life, from growing up in poverty to becoming an entrepreneur. He delves into the critical significance of defining your individual values as a coach, and the need to resist the hustle culture that often pervades the coaching world.
Dr Harrison shares his unique academic journey, being the first in his family to attend grammar school, an experience that ignited his interest in medicine. Tune in as he recounts his turbulent experiences with workplace bullying and his transition from being a GP to a barrister. He underlines the importance of speaking up and the role of leadership coaching in comprehending his inherent desire for justice. Let's discuss the challenges he faced, the resilience developed, and the growth experienced.
Lastly, his insights about work-life balance in different healthcare systems, such as in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand, provide a unique perspective. Learn how Dr.# Harrison's coaching qualifications have helped address workplace bullying, toxic work cultures, and low self-esteem. He paints a vivid picture of his mission to instill a culture of kindness and compassion in the workplace.
Let's explore the power of leading by example in creating a positive and supportive environment. Join us in this enriching conversation that celebrates resilience, personal growth, and compassionate leadership.
Hi everyone, welcome to episode six. Apologies for the loss of signal on the previous broadcast. So welcome to the diary of the dental coach. I'll just do a short introduction. We had some amazing guests. We've predominantly had dentists on this series, So we've had Dr Amman Bharti, we've had Dr Sanz Bandari, we've had Dr Neil Katari, we've had Dr Stuart Campbell and last week we had Meade from the founder of Smilefast. Some amazing, amazing people. So, without further ado, I just wanted to introduce you guys to Dr Adam Harrison, who is a doctor, a barrister and a leadership coach. He's got a phenomenal CV and I'm kind of honored to be in the same room as him. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Oh, madassa, the honour is all mine. Honestly, i'm really, really grateful to you for inviting me on. It sounds like you've had some really stellar guests, so I'm sorry to lower the bar.
Speaker 1:I think when I looked at your CV I think I'm kind of really, really impressed. I wish I had so many different courses and different I suppose, different, diverse groups of things that you've done. It's a phenomenal CV and I think everyone would be impressed with that. So let's just talk through. I know obviously you said you came from a humble background in Birmingham and money was a little bit tight. Tell us a bit more about how that impacted you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, regarding my academic achievements, when you're as old as me, madassa, you can have done lots of things. I probably could have done more, to be fair, but I've been foolish enough. Yeah, no, it was kind of happy days as a child, but they all saying we didn't have two pennies to rub together was kind of fairly accurate. It's very, very working class.
Speaker 2:My dad unfortunately divorced when I think I was five or six, as my dad had a major operation and he had some what we now realize was quite severe post-operative depression and couldn't cope with having a wife and a child at that time. So he you know, mum and him went their separate ways and then mum remarried And my stepfather during the 80s it was a really tough time when Maggy Thatcher was in charge was recessured and interest rates were ridiculous and my stepdad was made redundant multiple times And my mum had pretty regular jobs at one point I think she had three jobs And, you know, had to remorge her house a few times And yeah, so it was tough days but we all got through it and we're all thriving now. But yeah, i guess I think about. I do think about this at times and think about how. You know there was a lot of that narrative of, oh you know, really sorry, we can't afford, you know, we can't afford that And you know, and that just sort of stays with you really.
Speaker 2:And so when I transitioned from being a fully employed person to then working for myself, and because of the going going overseas for a couple of years, i kind of literally went cold turkey. I kind of resigned from, had to resign from all my posts because we were moving overseas And then none of them could be held open for me. So when we got back I was in a completely different position. I was fully self employed. I was, you know, fully an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2:And when I first started out in the UK trying to get clients and stuff a couple of years ago, i think I definitely exhibited the signs of a scarcity mindset. That really was a throwback from, you know, being brought up in poverty really at times. You know working classes one thing, but sometimes I would say we're below the bread line, you know. And so you know I guess I was quite desperate to get clients sometimes and that comes across. You know, if someone's you can tell if someone's desperate to kind of work with you and it's it's not, it's not a nice feeling actually And I've worked on that a lot and really reframed that and definitely I'm working progress but definitely have much more of an abundance mindset now.
Speaker 1:You know, i appreciate that Interesting, isn't it? I think as coaches, we sometimes, like myself, i try not to get influenced by one particular individual like, for example you've probably heard of someone like Gary Vee, and he's very much, and there's a lot of coaches Tony Robbins.
Speaker 1:it's all about hustling, hustling, hustling all the time and trying to get sales and trying to get people or trying to get clients and converting clients and trying to do that, and I myself don't feel comfortable doing that because I suppose, probably like yourself, we're always looking out for the best interests of the person and whether we really genuinely feel like we can help them. And if we don't think we can help them, then I would rather pass that client on to somebody who can rather than myself trying to undertake something that's not suitable for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. No, that's a really good point. Yeah, definitely. I think part of it was being a fairly newly qualified coach and actually being desperate to use my skills for the betterment of my colleagues. But also there was the well, i do have bills to pay as well, you know, and it's. But now I just appreciate that there's an abundance of people to work with, there's an abundance of money out there and I don't want to just work with everyone or anyone. You know, i want to work with people who are in my tribe. You know, when I have these one-to-one chemistry calls or discovery calls, you know different coaches call them different things. I'm just myself, i'm just like I am now talking to you and if people tend to like that, you know, i think I don't just put on any pretenses or anything. I just have a normal chat with people and you know, i'm just.
Speaker 1:Tell us about how the decision came to do medicine and why did you choose medicine at the time?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:During the school years. I know obviously because medicine obviously, and it still is probably one of the highest, you know, the highest grades to do medicine similar to dentistry, after really academic. And obviously from what your background is. Obviously a lot of the people around you had, like I'd say, quite humble jobs and I think you mentioned you were one of the first to go to university in your family. So how did that come about and where do you think that motivation came, that I really want to do well and make something in my life.
Speaker 2:That's a really good question. I'm really having to, you know, scrape the brain cells, you know the memory banks. I mean, i think if I look back to that time when we were very financially embarrassed, i think I just kind of kept my head down and I was a very good student, you know, primary school. I worked very hard then And then in Birmingham you know those who are from Birmingham or around Birmingham will know that as a city we're very blessed with the King Edward, the Sixth Foundation and there are lots of grammar schools around the city. And you know I get my mom always. You know she knew that I was, you know, a clever, clever boy at primary school And she just encouraged me to sit the 11 plus. But there wasn't again, there wasn't anyone in the family that had done it. No one else had gone to grammar school. And you know, thankfully I was blessed with a half decent brain and was able to pass the 11 plus And I think that's what made me.
Speaker 2:You know, when you're in that academic environment with other kids who have all passed that exam, there is that kind of I don't know, i don't know where it came from, but that's kind of competitive drive And you know, i was in classes with people and I had friends whose parents were doctors and lawyers and dentists and teachers, you know, and mine were not. And one of my best friends, his dad, was a consultant and a dentist and you know I used to go to his house to play and I guess that's when I became exposed to the idea of being a doctor, really, and my mum worked in general practices as I was a bit further along in secondary school and she was a doctor's receptionist and so I met some GPs then And, yeah, i guess I don't know, when I was about 13, i just thought I'd a vet or doctor. And then I did work experience when I was 15 in the local hospital what was formerly Cellio hospital for anyone listening from Birmingham And that was it. That just kind of cemented it for me, and I was good at all the subjects but I chose to do the sciences And that was it really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think being in that environment with people whose parents did things like that is what gave me the idea, so did your friend do medicine as well.
Speaker 1:The one who was the My best friend.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it's an interesting story, but no, he ended up doing genetics in Leeds and then he went to work in the city and he works for the National Bank of Australia or National Australian Bank or something now, so he works in finance.
Speaker 1:So the decision to do medicine. Did you think you would get in? Was there any kind of thought that went into it, or was it just I really like this, I want to do it. How did it come about?
Speaker 2:I don't know, i guess, while in terms of self-doubts and stuff I didn't really have any, it's interesting that my mum told me about some stuff subsequently, so not at the time, so it was not to kind of psych me out, but I had an aunt who was a little unkind, and actually my maternal grandfather as well was a bit tricky at times and they said, oh, he comes from a broken home, as they called it in those days when your parents were divorced. He'll never make anything of himself. What's he thinking? that he can become a doctor and stuff like that. So I'm really glad that I mean she must have been so upset to hear this, but she never told me all of that.
Speaker 1:But subconsciously with that, not your confidence. When people say things like that, especially family members or people that you perhaps love dearly, doubting your credentials, doubting your abilities, sometimes it can have a great impact on someone, but somewhere down the line I think it does affect your confidence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean honestly, i absolutely flew through my GCSEs. I smashed them and that really gave me confidence with my A-levels I actually took my foot off the gas in my A-levels and it was a bit of a bumpy road. But do you know what? I think you say that people who dearly love you, they would never say anything like that, they would never doubt you, they would never sow any seeds like that.
Speaker 2:My mum was my biggest still is actually my biggest champion, my biggest advocate, and everything I do I share because she's not on social media. She turned 70 in April. Some 70-year-olds are, there's silver surfers and so on, but she's not interested to be fair. So I share the things that I've done with her and on the family group and she's still so ridiculously proud And if I go and give her keynote speech or something like that, she's like oh God, i'm so proud of you, son, and she's always been my strongest advocate and that's what I needed to keep my confidence going. Just my mum. She didn't have money that she could share me with gifts, but she gave me so much love.
Speaker 1:Excellent. And what was medical school like for you? Did you enjoy it?
Speaker 2:Med school. med school is brilliant for so many reasons, so, so, so many reasons. And it's not when you're doing your preclinical. it's not always the academic side that makes it brilliant In the first year or so, it's the social side. I think I was at what was St Mary's Hospital Medical School back in the days now part of Imperial College School of Medicine. So it was a small med school, just maybe 105 people in a year And a real family, you know, a real kind of sense of well Mary's men and women and a real sense of camaraderie and that whole kind of rival. the other London med schools just really cemented that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, i did my, my interclated BSC in history of medicine at UCL at the Welcome Institute, and that was also an absolutely incredible year. you know, being with a bunch of other medics who are interested in history And then when you went out to social events, mixing with people who were studying French and geography and economics and stuff was just fantastic being part of a massive university. So yeah, i loved all of my years at med school for different reasons. I was really clinical. I really enjoyed the patient based stuff and learning all of that and doing stuff. So, yeah, there wasn't. there wasn't really anything about med school that I didn't enjoy, to be fair.
Speaker 1:When did you decide to become a GP?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was almost a diagnosis of exclusion. It was something that I wasn't initially drawn to. I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist, that's why I?
Speaker 2:was. I did a lot of histopath research projects with an amazing histopathologist in St Mary's School, rob Goldin. He's the head of the department of Prof Goldin and, yeah, loved, loved that and just wanted to, wanted to do forensics. You know I was quite into that show, silent Witness. I actually met the woman that the school professor, helen Whitwell, was the woman that the Amanda Burton character was based on And she was the head of the unit in Sheffield at the Medical Legal Center in Sheffield which is like this purpose built. It's got the mortuaries and the coroners course and everything medical legal in one building in Sheffield. It's really, really good idea. She was a neuropathologist so she came into it from a kind of traumatic head injury point of view. So that was always set to do that And I went down that route and that didn't work out because I just I didn't get much input from my consultants and I just got very bored doing general histopath for a couple of years And then, yeah, so I went into surgery because I really I thought, well, if I don't, if I, if I'm not going to end up being, you know, forensic pathology, what did I most enjoy Med School?
Speaker 2:and it's probably surgery. So I did lots of surgical sho jobs about six And yeah, the problem with that with that was that in every job I encountered a bully, a workplace bully who was one of the consultants. So in every job there was a consultant who made my life a bit unpleasant at times and in different ways. So I experienced some of the kind of classic sort of playground bullying, but in the workplace, like people kind of like, you know, almost physically bullying on the verge of, but lots of kind of like shouting at you, you know, and in your face in front of other people. A lot of kind of that shaming and berating and belittling behavior on the wards And then other stuff like kind of undermining stuff and, you know, withholding work responsibilities, not letting you operate and stuff like that was just, yeah, it was every job.
Speaker 2:There was something and it was because I was quite confident and I would speak up about stuff. If I didn't think something was fair, like something on, you know, the encore rotor or something like that, i would, i would speak up and I put a target on my back And, yeah, i often used to kind of stand up for people who didn't have the confidence to speak, speak up themselves, like IMGs and you know some female colleagues and stuff and I'd be like that's not fair, you can't do that. But you put your head above the parapet and then you get a target on your back. So I left surgery after a while because I just thought well, you know, in seven years I'll be a consultant and I'll just be working with a bunch of bullies, basically.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting because probably I mean, i'm not saying it's right, but in medicine especially, there is this hierarchy system And when you come in, probably as a student or a newly qualified doctor, perhaps does that show of superiority or show of that I'm higher than you and kind of have to feel like they want to put you in your place in a way. Would that be a fair assessment of perhaps, what you experienced?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean for sure there are. there are multiple reasons why people behave how they behave and in certain specialties there are some people who have a bit of a God complex or their narcissist or even malignant narcissists, you know, and they get a kick out of that kind of thing. And then you've got people who have been on the receiving end of it themselves and they just they normalize it, so they, they, they model themselves on what they've seen, so their bosses treated them that way and they just think that's the normal way to treat their juniors because that's how they were treated. And then you get that kind of well, you know, i had to suffer it, so you've got to suffer it. you know the kind of it's character building, that, that kind of nonsense you know. So there's, there's quite a few reasons why, why it happens.
Speaker 1:It's quite brave, though, isn't it? As opposed as a student, most people just want to stay out the way of bullies, or stay out the way of, perhaps, people who are superior, who might have power and control and influence. Yeah, i mean, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:I wasn't. I wasn't like that when I was a student. It was when I was a junior, a junior doctor, a junior surgical trainee. But it all became clear to me when I had my, my first lot of coaching, which I had some leadership coaching when I was an assistant medical director for NHS England, because I have a you know from my, my legal qualification sort of segueed and transitioned into medical medical leadership career And I had leadership coaching when I was an assistant medical director, nhs England in 2018.
Speaker 2:And for the first time in my life, i was asked to do a values survey, like a values questionnaire you probably do with your clients and VIA values in action, and one of my top five was they. They use the term judgment, but if you look at it, it's like equity, fairness, parity. You know, you've got a strong desire for justice And I was like, right, okay, so that's why I kind of didn't tolerate unfair treatment at work And that's why I felt this urge to go and study law. You know, because I've got, you know, that is like running through me, you know that values running through me And it still does. So when I see people being being bullied, i can't, i just can't bear it And if you know, assuming the situation is okay to do that, then I will speak up and call it out, you know.
Speaker 1:So obviously you became a GP. How long did you Do the GP role before you perhaps decided to move on or transition more into the law side of things?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it was probably yeah. So 2003 to 2006, i did my surgical jobs and then I decided by that stage that, you know, enough was enough And I started my GP training in 2006. I managed to do that in two years because of all the other jobs that I'd done some of them counted And, yeah, came out the other end in 2008 as a qualified GP and worked pretty much full time as a GP locum for about 18 months before ending up working for the Medical Defense Union So you know the medical equivalent of the DDU for your listeners And yeah.
Speaker 2:So again in that 18 months, in fact, even as a GP registrar, i was on the receiving end of some what I would say was best unfair treatment and, at worst, bullying. So I just thought, well, yeah, it seems to be quite ubiquitous in the profession. It's not just surgeons, you know, there are lots of other doctors that do it as well. And I just, yeah, i was like, well, you know what and the kind of patient side of it. I was working in a very, very gritty inner city practice And it was just a very demanding patient population, you know, with very sort of high expectations and so on, and I just wasn't enjoying it. So I guess I had always wanted to use, you know, try and use medicine and law together in some way And that's why I ended up working for the MDU, i think, and it was through that that that I mean that was a fascinating job.
Speaker 2:And you know, working with doctors who are, who are and you know you'll know from you know with dentists who are under that kind of pressure of being sued or having a big complaint against them or having GDC or GMC action against them, you know real privilege to be able to help those, those clinicians in that situation. But when the cases got really interesting, you had to hand it over to legal and I'm a bit of a complete, a finisher. So I was like I want to be doing that bit, i want to get done in the interesting, but I don't want to hand it on. So that's what when I went to law school and did my barrister training, so Excellent And I think it's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1:this, i suppose this situation that you found yourself in dealing with, the supposed, this power battle between, perhaps, senior people or people who are senior in the organization, and you are sort of having to deal with their tactics of bullying and tactics of detox, which I think will come back to, because I think that's a. I think one of the things that I want to get across to viewers as well is perhaps give them some, some tips on how to deal with these situations, because they're all too common and almost in every organization, in every workplace environment, there are different characters, different egos, different power battles, different influences, different dynamics that occur And if you're vulnerable or susceptible, and sometimes if you speak up, for example, especially bullies, they don't like it And sometimes they can make things worse for you. And, to be honest with you, i went through quite a similar situation. I mean, some people may know about my story, but I was on the receiving end of power abuse and people who had influence, influence And they tried to make my life hell. And I've come back stronger and I've come back on here talking with you today.
Speaker 1:So obviously, you did your barrister training and we were talking a little bit. Before you went live on air, you decided not to pursue a career being a barrister. What was that? What was the reason for that?
Speaker 2:Well, firstly, i just want to say I'm sorry that you experienced that, what sounds like a really awful situation as well, and I can empathize And, yeah, i mean you have. You have my support anytime, anytime you need it. But yeah, well, i was called to the bar in 2014. And at the time, our eldest who turns 10 over the summer That's crazy that she's. She's I'm going to be a father of a double digit child And she was about 14 months old.
Speaker 2:My wife had returned to work after maternity leave. She's a consultant maxillofacial surgeon, so she was a registrar on her training at the time and quite quite a way through it. And, you know, the options were that I become a pupil barrister, if I, if I'd got a pupilage and, you know, be working all the hours under the sun worse than junior doctor hours, for sure. I mean, often they would give you a briefs at sort of six o'clock in the evening. Yeah, you need to be in this magistrates court tomorrow morning, you know, which is like, you know, 150 miles away or something like that, and it's like you spend all night reading the brief and stuff, you know, and that really, and the low income and the uncertainty just wasn't really compatible with the way that my wife and I wanted to raise our kids And we'd always said, you know, we had friends who you know kind of like two, two doctor, two, two doctors as parents in the family and they were both, you know, high flyers and use like au pairs and nannies and stuff like that. And you know, if you're, if you are, reliant upon people like that and then all of a sudden they say they can't come to work or whatever, it was just a nightmare and we never wanted our children to be brought up by other people, by strangers. You know we wanted it to be. Also I just said to my wife look you are, you're very far along in your training. You know the end end point is in sight And it'd be stupid for you to kind of, you know, give that up And for me to pursue this legal thing I will sort it out. On dual qualified medicine and law, i'll find something. Everything is figure out a ball, as I've I've learned recently, you know. So I was like, yeah, it'll be fine, i'll sort it out.
Speaker 2:So that's when I applied for various medical, what ended up being medical leadership roles, but just starting off saying, can I do some advice. We work for you. Can I do some consultancy work for you? You know I'm kind of, have these qualifications and I can help your doctors. You know I can advocate for them at tribunals and you know, whatever, whatever you need me to do. And then I ended up being co-opted on committees and becoming members of boards and being appointed as a medical director. And then you know and it all started really because of the law, you know I didn't end up practicing law but without that legal qualification my boss at NHS England wouldn't have taken me on, because I ended up working on the discipline and regulatory side for the performers list And you know it was really useful for me having that legal background. So you know everything, everything happens for a reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i suppose, like you said, you somehow made the dots connect. You did medicine and then you did law and then you found a job that required both qualifications and be able to help people. The lesson is that the more skills you acquire, the more. I suppose there's always somewhere down the line the dots connect as to why you did something, even though you didn't know it at the time, why you did something.
Speaker 2:That's true, and also I would always, you know, anyone that's looking into kind of like, you know, augmenting their career or even transitioning is just to be opportunistic. I was very opportunistic, i was very much like I sent an email out to the chief executive of the local medical committee and said I am here in Nottinghamshire, i have these qualifications, can I help you with any of your doctors, you know? and that probably set me off on that, on that road really. But I would say it's always worth reaching out to people. And just what have you got to lose?
Speaker 1:Exactly, be proactive. I think it's there and sort of you know, I think, okay, let me just see where an email might take me, where a phone is not going to come to you.
Speaker 2:People don't know about you Unless you put yourself out there. people. it's like it's like with us now, without coaching, you know you can be the best coach in the world, but if you don't promote yourself at all, you're the world's best kept secret. Yeah, and you know that's that's the way I felt about that really. you know you've got, you've got to speculate to. you know what's the saying speculate to accumulate, or something isn't it. You've got to be speculative and opportunistic if you want to get anywhere, get anything.
Speaker 1:So you moved to Australia as well for a short period, especially during whilst COVID hit. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So by that stage I was, i was the assistant medical director at NHS England. I was vice chair of Nott's local medical committee. I was the medical lead for Nottingham Urgent Treatment Centre. I was doing some out of hours GP work. I had medical students, i had registrars, i would supervise at the at the out of hours And I did some other kind of random advisory and consultancy work And I just had the best portfolio career.
Speaker 2:I absolutely loved it. I was really in my element And not only was, it was every day interesting and it was very varied. And you know you don't get stuck in a rut because you're not going to the same place of work every day, you don't get sucked into office politics and all that kind of stuff, you know. But you know it was just, yeah, it was just, it was. It was wonderful And but unfortunately well, fortunately, unfortunately. So my wife said you know I have to do a fellowship you know most of them if they want to subspecialise as consultants. And she said you know there's these opportunities. Should we go to Australia for a year? And I suppose without really thinking it through, because I've always travelled a lot since I first went overseas when I was 18. I went to Hong Kong for the first time. I'd never been never been overseas before went to Hong Kong and spent three months there.
Speaker 1:How did you meet your wife?
Speaker 2:Oh, i'll come back to that. Yeah, so, yeah, so, just lots and lots of travelling. And my wife was like, yeah, should we go and have an adventure? and our kids were kind of like about to turn three and about to turn six or thing, and there was a very, you know, very portable at the age. They're very resilient and flexible. So it's like, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you're right, we went for a year, on the face of it, and then eight months into that year, the pandemic happened. So when we were due to leave in July 2020, we couldn't actually leave the country. So we ended up staying Australia for 18 months, excuse me. And then my wife got offered a consultant local consultant post in New Zealand and we're like, should we do it? Like, well, you know, just just to hop across the Tasman Sea, it's actually a bit further away than you think it is and the maps make make the look really close together. But actually it's like, you know, kind of three, three and a bit of our flight from Brisbane. But yeah, no, it was just, it was amazing. And yeah, definitely, definitely recommend people, you know, going, even if it's just for a year or two, go work overseas and just experience a different, you know healthcare setting for dentistry or medicine.
Speaker 1:Was there not something that you could have explored to stay long term as a permanent thing, or was it? what was the reason for coming back?
Speaker 2:Coming back. We'd been away, you know, two years, when we were only meant to be away for a year. We had tenants in our house who were causing some challenges and wanting to leave early and the house was going to be empty and we hadn't seen our family for two years. And well, that's not true. We did get back in the January before the pandemic happened, in the March, to be fair But so we haven't seen them for about 18 months. And yeah, just we, yeah, we were ready to to come back, but yeah, i mean, we'd never, never say never. There's always opportunities for any, any door in terms of like.
Speaker 1:Perhaps your experiences. What are the main? because nowadays especially, there's a lot of medics and dentists looking to explore Leave the NHS in the UK for places like Australia and New Zealand, and with the promise, or perhaps the expectation, of a better work life balance, etc. Yeah, what, what, what? your thoughts on that and do you think that's a possibility or not?
Speaker 2:I think that there are lots of opportunities. I'm sure a sort of statistics recently that was said, something like you know it's like a third of, like a you know new, newly starting doctors in Australia from the UK or something like that is something like really crazily scary statistics. I mean that just says how many British doctors are leaving, right. But there are so lots of opportunities. There are lots of changes in New Zealand as well, partly because a lot of, a lot of Kiwi doctors Actually end up going to Australia because the pay is better. So that leads vacancies in New Zealand Where the cost of living is quite, is quite high. But yeah, in terms of the work life balance in both of those places It was fantastic. I mean my wife was finishing on on time when she wasn't on call and A lot of evenings we would go out, you know, and take the kids out and take them cycling and stuff like that, and we had a lot of good family time in Australia and in New Zealand. Just to give you a little insight, and When my wife's and the team used to meet in the morning, they used to meet at eight o'clock for For coffee.
Speaker 2:They'd all go to this coffee shop opposite the hospital main entrance at eight o'clock And then they'd start the rounds at eight thirty, whatever. And my wife said, oh, why don't we all just Stay in bed for an extra half an hour and a, meet up at eight thirty and start the rounds? and they were like What, that's never gonna happen. This is, you know, this is team team bonding time, and You know there's a sort of they were very and they finished on time as well in this either never very, very kind of keen on Promoting that. That's he working and having social time together. So I would recommend them as places to work for sure.
Speaker 1:So obviously came back to the UK and, incidentally, was it whilst you were away that you did your coaching qualification.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was because, as I said to you off off air before, and I was thinking about working in general practice in Australia But they had this requirement that you had to have done at least 32 hours a week for the preceding two years before you moved over there, immediately prior to moving over there, and I I Was doing about eight hours of out of hours a week For, like the preceding year or more. So I was. I was nowhere near kind of hitting that, that benchmark that they set. So it's like, well, i can't work as a GP And my wife was doing a one-in-two on call rotor, so pretty, pretty intense, and I was like, well, you know, i'll be needed to kind of, you know, do the school runs and feed the kids and you know, just look after the, the home really, and, but, you know, seem needed to use my brain. So, because I'd had that Coaching, what I worked at NHS England, that I just, you know I was very cheesy but it was very, it was transformative for me.
Speaker 2:You know, it was like I had this epiphany like this is Amazing. You know, these insights I've never had before and a lot that came from my values, the values work that I've done with my coach and I was like, yeah, so I'm gonna, i'm, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna train to be a coach and I could do it remotely, and I was linked with a provider in Brisbane. We were based in Darwin. So, yeah, that's what I did. I did my coaching courses life leadership and executive coaching.
Speaker 1:I mean, how big is it? one of the things that I've kind of noticed on my journey as a coach is that In the UK we have a bit of a stiff upper lip attitude towards getting help and coaching and therapy. I'd say that American guys are far more or it's been far more More widely used there and I'd say the guys who I speak to, especially the dentists in America, far more open to it, far more, you know, reciproat to it and and really sort of understand the idea of the philosophy. And you know, even even last week I spoke to one of the top coaches actually he's coming on in a couple of weeks time one of the top dental coaches and You know he said it's been used here for over 10 years. You know we've been really, you know, honed it in and and embedded it within the dental sector Whereas, yeah, in the UK I'd say it's, it's not so much So and it's kind of relatively Newish to the people in the UK.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts about things? You know obviously, i'm sure yourself you work with different. You know country, different countries be from different backgrounds as well, Yeah what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're right, i do, and I I usually have a couple of American physicians on my on my books at any one time and I do some work for an organization over there that was founded by a physician coach And and she, she sort of found me and I wanted me to do do some work for her.
Speaker 2:So I have have some quite a lot of insights into The problems that face, the challenges that face by American physicians. You know and my understanding is in, you would know This as well and probably better than me I mean coaching, it as a, as a process, comes out of sports coaching and that that comes out of the US. So it started off as sports coaching and then coaching evolved out of that life coaching, and it was in the US for a long time And it was in the US first. So, just like they are, you know, very open about going to therapists and things like that, you know they'll, they'll see coaches and a lot of them will have coaches. So, yeah, you're right, they're probably, you know, i don't know 20, 30 years ahead of the UK, if at least you know.
Speaker 1:What about Australia? Are they somewhere in between or the worst? because some people were saying about New Zealand like it's a really backward place, new Zealand. I don't know that. That was. That was what I heard about, really.
Speaker 2:I would never use that that term. I think that's a little, a little on the pejorative side, but But in terms of Coaching I would say, yeah, they're not. They're not as advanced I think Australia is. If we're about 30 years behind the States, then I'd I'd guess, from what I saw, australia is about 10 years behind us and And New Zealand's probably another 10 years or so behind them. I mean, it's just probably just Just starting to make an appearance over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah but, a lot of I don't if you notice this, but a lot of Clinicians in the UK. I don't know whether it's just the circles I'm mixing. There just seem to be a disproportionate number in my network, but there's a I seem to be a lot of clinicians who are training as coaches in the UK.
Speaker 1:I Think it's time to gain traction as a, as a concept and as an idea, and I think I Suppose it's like anything, isn't it? It is, you know, i think at the moment, obviously, the coaching arena isn't that well Regulated as well, and it isn't.
Speaker 1:It is a new idea and new concept, but it seems like Having a good social media presence can help on on that side. So I wanted to just talk a little bit more about which is the main thing that I wanted to discuss, which is what we put on the poster as well was, you know, dealing with bullies, dealing with toxic work cultures, and How you, as a coach, can help people and Organisations deal with this kind of situation. And then, obviously, we'll talk about the, the kindness leadership that you Started as well earlier this year. Whichever is, if I'm quite fascinating, quite interested in that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean I I guess the workplace bullying stuff for me comes from When we were in when we're in Australia, i was actually working as a tutor for the local med school and I was kind of personal tutor to. They had a Particular program called the younger ND program Which was for indigenous female indigenous med students and they were all them gem students, graduate, graduate med students, and So I had about six of these female indigenous med students as tutis over the time and a couple of them were on the receiving end of bullying from Doctors on their team when they were on their clinical placements in the hospitals and One of them kind of particularly came to me asking for advice and was really upset and it just Brought a lot of my experiences back back to me, kind of coming flooding back really, and I Just I just thought, you know, have this coaching. I don't sure if I was qualified by that stage, but I was was training to be a coach. That was nearly there and what can I do with this Qualification and that's going to be something meaningful. And I thought, well, i can, i can try and help people who've been on the receiving end of bullying. You know, and that was the first time I went on a podcast talking about. It went on Dr Rachel Morris's show You're not a frog, and talked about bullying in the mainly in the healthcare workplace.
Speaker 2:So yeah, i mean, you know, obviously it's very, it's very stressful being on the receiving end of most types of bullying. Sometimes you don't even realize you're on the receiving end until someone points out you know, like types of gaslighting and things like that. But oftentimes it's very stressful and it clearly knocks your confidence and your self esteem And can put you into, you know, quite a negative mindset. So for me, with with one to one clients and there are not that many, i'll be honest with you because it's very hard for people to. It's very hard for doctors particularly, to admit that they have any kind of weakness or any kind of imperfection or any kind of chink in the armor, you know, and that's admitting to themselves, so acknowledging it, let alone telling a stranger that they think they're being bullied and that they've got, you know, rock bottom confidence or imposter syndrome or whatever as a result. So it's it's, it's hard, but you know, i have worked with with some clients and I I've worked them through the how to manage the acute stress side of things. You know what to do in the moment And then the sort of the longer term stuff. So how to kind of like build up, rebuild their confidence and, you know, help with their mindset, turn that into much more of a positive mindset.
Speaker 2:And you know just kind of just techniques on how to deal with people, because they're at the, as you said, bullies come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and personalities and you know, sometimes, because they've just been modeling themselves on their bosses who were bullies, they don't even they think that's normal. I don't even realize that it is upsetting for other people and that it is a problem. And actually, if you're, if you can be bold enough to actually point it out to them, they suddenly think you know what's serious. Is this what I'm like? Is this how I'm being perceived? Is this what I've? what I said to you is really, you know, has really upset you and they. You know I have been in that situation myself where I called someone out In private And they said you know what? you're absolutely right, i'm so sorry, i didn't realize, you know. So that can be a bit of that.
Speaker 2:There's also that if they're uncertain that they're being bullied, you know, to get a sense, check, to ask someone who was a bystander, or to speak to a close confidant and run through the scenario with them and say, well, this is the objective definition, you know, if you like, of what bullying is. Do you think what I've been through, kind of you know, hits the bar to be to be classed as bullying? So yeah, it's complex, obviously, every, every person is different And you just kind of the most important thing, as you know, as a coach, is really just offering that safe, non-judgmental space of just listening, you know, and showing unconditional positive regard, you know the thing with the bullying, how one thing, obviously one perhaps you're in, you know your insight on this is obviously, it could be that the bully A knows that they're bullying Yeah, they don't know the bullying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, when they find out, or somebody clocks on, that they perhaps are bullying, yeah, it's a little bit. I suppose if you're a junior person or a junior colleague, you're going to feel a bit vulnerable because you're thinking I know that this isn't right and I know that this person's bullying me. But sometimes it say, for example, you decide to confront them or decide to say how you feel. Sometimes that can negatively impact them because perhaps they could then react in a defensive manner by perhaps retaliating to that kind of realisation. So you have to be a bit, i suppose, tactful and careful on how you deal with that situation.
Speaker 2:I mean, every single situation is a sort of case by case. You know, it depends on the victim or the target, whatever nomenclature you want to use. It depends on the bully, it depends on the type of bullying. You know, i break it down into what I call overt bullying, which is that berating, shaming, belittling in your face, name calling, discrimination, harassment type stuff on the grounds of gender and race and so on. And then there's the covert stuff, that's the more kind of undermining, the gaslighting stuff that you might even realise is happening to you until they present you with it, you know. And then there's the specifically work related stuff. So you know work over, monitoring your work. You know giving you too much work so you set to fail. You know restricting your training opportunities, all this, all this sort of stuff. So there are so many different types of bullying, so many different types of bullies. You know the intentional ones, those intentional ones with insight and those without insight. You know the narcissists, the unintentional or the accidental bullies. You know there's so many different types And the. You know.
Speaker 2:I think it's really important for anyone who's who is watching this or listening to this if they, if they're on the receiving end of anything they consider to be bullying. First thing is like they're not alone. We all think and I don't know if you were like this, i was certainly like this you think you're the only person going through it And that's also because we're not willing to share it as well. So if we, if we, if we spoke to one of our colleagues about to, they'd be like yeah, i know what you mean. I've had the same. I've been through this. You know we, most of us have. We keep it to ourselves. So we think we're, we think we're alone. So it's, you're not, you're not alone, you're not on your own. And we blame ourselves. It must be something I did, must be something I said. You know there are revered consultant. Why would, how could they be in the wrong? it must be me to blame. Well, it's, it's not. They are to blame and you are. You are blameless. You know it's not, it's not your fault. And then there's a shame. You know we think we feel ashamed of it, like with mental health issues. You know we feel ashamed if we're anxious or depressed or something like. Well, we're ashamed if we're being bullied because it shows that we are, we're weak, we're weaklings. You know we can be pushed around And that's shameful, right, because that's how society views it, that kind of macho thing. So, so they need to know that they're not alone, it's not their fault and there's no reason to feel ashamed. But, honestly, if the if the situation is right, it's always good to have someone in your corner, so it's good to speak with someone. So I'll give you an example When I was on the receiving end of a massive, massive balling out on the wall in front of about 12 colleagues and four patients in a bay by a cardiac surgeon through no fault of my own, and I excuse myself and the ward went.
Speaker 2:When it all settled down And I went back, we were living in the hospital accommodation at the time And my wife, who was not my wife at the time, was there And she's like what are you doing home during the day, you know? and I told what happened and she said you know, you just need to go and find him and tell him What the situation is, that it, you know, this is not your fault, it was because you weren't given the information by your colleagues and so on. And that's what I did. She kind of built my confidence And then I kind of girded my loins and I went to his office and I knocked on the door and I went in and I said this is what happened and this isn't fair because of such and such.
Speaker 2:And this is how you made me feel And you know, i don't even want to work in this job now. You know that's the consequence And I'd really like it if you didn't do that again to anyone. And he said you know what? you're right, i shouldn't have said that, i didn't wait to get all the information, i just was reactive and I just shouted at you in front of everyone. I'm really sorry It won't happen again And I was shocked. But you know what, if you talk to people and you've got someone who can kind of boost you, it makes a massive, massive difference. And instead of me then going through the rest of that four months that was left of that job in fear, actually we smiled at each other as we walked down the corridor and stuff. He let me assist him in theater. It was totally different. So actually having a bit of confidence and mindset coaching can really help if you've been on the receiving end of that treatment.
Speaker 1:And let's talk a little bit about toxic cultures and detoxifying toxic cultures. What would you describe a toxic culture and, obviously, give us some tips on how to perhaps deal with toxic cultures within an organization or within a team?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a great question. I mean, toxic cultures manifest in so many ways, don't they? Obviously, bullying happens in toxic cultures and it's sort of allowed to go unchecked, or the bully is seemingly rewarded, The whistleblower is punished. There's the pervasive kind of lack of kindness, lack of civility, lack of courtesy, There's incompetence. There's just when you are working in a toxic culture, your loyalty to the organization is very low. So it affects the customer or patient experience if it's a healthcare organization, which in turn, if it's a corporate organization, affects the bottom line. So they're not as profitable as organizations that are not toxic.
Speaker 2:And for me it comes from the top. So there are the victims of the bullying and the people who have recipients of the unkindness and so on, and you can work with them and you need to work with them and bolster their confidence, but that's not gonna change the culture of the organization. That comes from the top. You need to work with the C-suite personnel the CEO, the COO, the CFO, all of the Cs And when you have to instill a culture of kindness and sort of say well, this is what, because your culture is toxic, it's affecting your staff morale.
Speaker 2:People are demonstrating absenteeism, presenteism, quiet quitting, loud quitting. People are, you can't retain staff, It's affecting your profits You're getting your clients are going to other organizations, You're losing all your best people All these consequences of a toxic workplace And it's like, do you like the sound of all that? or would you like it to be the complete opposite of that? Would you like happy staff who choose to stay in the organization, who bring clients, want to stay with the organization and work with you because it's a happy, it seems like a happy environment and happy atmosphere and so on, And your profits are up and so on. And when faced with that and faced with the actual hard data, it's a bit of a no brainer really. But most people in an organization look to the senior, very senior, or the executive management teams for a steer, don't they, on how to behave. So if they kind behavior and I work with kind leadership, I call it so compassionate, servant, inclusive.
Speaker 1:So tell us about this in a bit more detail, because obviously today I don't know if you saw my post I did put on a post about being compassionate and strong, about Jacinda. I heard the New Zealand Prime Minister about how she was accused of not being assertive enough, but she was saying that it's important to be compassionate and strong. you don't have to be assertive And, i suppose, tell us how that perhaps fits in with your kindness leadership paradigm that we talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I looked at all the what I see as very positive leadership paradigms and feel that they all really come under the umbrella of what is ultimately kind leadership. So compassionate leadership, servant leadership, inclusive leadership, relational leadership they're all kind forms of leadership and the whole concept of being compassionate and showing that love and kindness and consideration for your fellow human, let alone your colleagues. The work of I really admire the work of Dr Kristen Neff in Texas and Professor Michael West from the Kings Fund talks about compassionate leadership And it's just been proven by studies to show that employees are happier and organizations are more successful. If you adopt that style of leadership And if you work on it from the very top, it will trickle down and detoxify the organization. It takes time, obviously. It takes time, but eventually you've got your senior management teams and then your team leaders and so on, all extolling the same virtues that the C-suite are demonstrating, and it's just a win-win for everyone for the employees, for the customers, for the shareholders. Whatever, everyone is a winner if the culture is kind.
Speaker 1:Kind and compassionate. I mean, how would you, perhaps from a coaching perspective, how would you try to instill that within an organization or allow them to understand the benefits of being compassionate and being understanding, because for some people it's just not natural for them to be like that? Yeah, and that's not. You know, and obviously yourself you've come across some different kind of personality types, and some people aren't people or orientated kind of people, and some people are quite dominant kind of characters, and especially the ones that find themselves in quite high, powerful positions. A lot of the time they did perhaps find the idea of being compassionate a bit like a weakness or a bit like that's not me. I like to be boss and I like to show that I'm boss.
Speaker 1:How would you deal with that kind of person or that kind of?
Speaker 2:scenario. The thing is that I think, if they are, they are going to be in the minority. You know, most people will embrace the concept And most people want it to be the norm to go to work and enjoy work and be happy at work. We spend so much of our life at work or in a workplace, you know it's just sensible for people to want to be in a kind, compassionate, considerate environment. So most people embrace it. So then, the people that don't embrace it are the outliers. Now, if they continue with that kind of behavior, then they will be the ones who are on a performance management pathway with HR or they will just leave. But, as I say, it takes time, you know, and a lot of it is kind of modeling your behavior on the people at the top. You know, like you know yourself. You know you've worked. You work in organizations.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've worked in hospitals and done dental work in hospitals, but you know those hospital trusts where you never see the CEO you know, and stuff is kind of miserable there, versus those places where the CEO comes on a weekly basis around the hospital and meets people and, you know, shows kindness and shows goodness.
Speaker 1:Do you think that's important in terms of, like an organization, for the person at the top to perhaps come down to that level of where business is happening or where the delivery of service is happening and show and lead by example?
Speaker 2:Very much leading by example is so important And otherwise like. if they're not visible and accessible, then they are just these people in the ivory towers that you know, you refer to in hushed tones. you know the CEO, you know, and then there's you know it's all kind of like you know rumors and stuff like that. you know You need to see them and see that they're real people and see that they care. Excuse me, i just think it's successful CEOs and successful senior leaders. it's hard in an NHS hospital trust where there's maybe 30,000 employees to know everyone. But to actually go and meet and greet and get down onto the shop floor every week and different areas in different departments and just get to know a few people is, i think, absolutely vital. It shows that you're just interested in people.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. So, coming towards the end of our podcast, are there any lasting words of wisdom that you want to tell our viewers, especially about coaching, about yourself, about some of the insights and perhaps how you might be able to help particular organisations, or even doctors, perhaps, or whatever area you specialise in?
Speaker 2:Well, even dentists. I've got a couple of clients at the moment who are dentists.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean okay. So for me it all boils down to kindness in every aspect of life, and I do quite a few talks at conferences around the benefits of kindness in the workplace. And there's a couple of quotes. If I can remember them off the top of my head, i think Henry James is purported to have said three things are important in life. The first is kindness, the second is kindness and the third is kindness. And I think that's just spot on. And then there's this guy called Rabbi Harold Kushner in New York.
Speaker 2:He says do things for people not because of who they are or what they can do for you, but because of who you are. So, essentially, be kind because you're a kind person, rather than, what can you get out of someone? what benefit can you get out of being kind to someone? or you know it's just, it's not authentic. Then is it? Which brings me on to the importance of just being authentic. And, like Brené Brown's work, being authentic, being vulnerable and just being courageous. You know being, you know dare to lead is one of those type of one of her books you know being brave enough to be authentic and vulnerable, because it does bring out, you know, the best in your colleagues in your team.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, i love doing that sort of work with organisations and I do work on well-being and burnout and career stuff because I've had a lot of career transitions. I work in areas that I have expertise in myself, you know. So I burnt out a couple of times. I've changed career a lot for the last time, i'm happy to say, as far as I know anyway, i experience a lot of workplace bullying. So that's, i have an affinity, you know, i'm a middle-aged man, so I've had some older male physicians who have really resonated with, you know, who are feeling quite stuck and quite lost.
Speaker 2:And I've been in leadership roles and I love leadership coaching because I just think leadership coaching can be so like, so impactful because if you can help the leaders be better leaders, then everyone benefits Their team benefits, the organisation benefits, the customers and the patients benefit, you know. So, yeah, happy to have conversations with people around all of those things. And I'm a podcaster, as you know, fellow podcaster, my podcast is called Inspiring Women Leaders. It's been going for over a year now, since the 25th of May last year was the first episode and it comes out every two weeks and I just have the most phenomenal female leaders, who are utter inspirations, and the listeners can learn so much from their journeys as to how they got to where they got, what their leadership styles are, how they dealt with challenges and some of the challenges that they have faced. Some of these women who are my guests.
Speaker 1:Is there a reason why you specifically niche out to women in particular?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean, it's not. I don't specialise in coaching or training female leaders, but I love coaching them, of course. but I have been blessed to have worked with so many phenomenal female leaders, more so than the male leaders that I've worked with over the years, and I had been on the receiving end of such wisdom, and it just occurred to me a few years ago that that wisdom needs to be shared. And my wife is a really strong woman of colour and she's a consultant surgeon, so she's done incredibly well, in a prejudicial line of work, to do what she's done. My mum, as you've heard, is a huge influence on me. She's been a massive advocate of mine and I have two daughters. We don't have any sons, we have two daughters, and I want a legacy, i want them to know that their dad was a strong male ally And so yeah, so yeah, inspiring women leaders. please take a listen and you won't be disappointed.
Speaker 1:Thanks, adam for coming on. We really really appreciate it. So, guys, this week we've actually got a doubleheader. So on Wednesday we've got Professor John Gibson. He's actually a professor in oral medicine and he will be talking about actually a very, very tragic situation, about how his son, cameron, died by suicide a few years ago. So it's going to be a very raw and emotional podcast on Wednesday. So do tune in for that at 8.30. And thanks, guys, for watching and listening and I'll see you on Wednesday. Thanks, thanks, dr Adam Harrison too.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thanks so much, madasah, really appreciate you having me really grateful.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thanks bye.