Are you ready to uncover the secrets of success in dentistry? Join our captivating conversation with Dr. Stuart Campbell, a highly esteemed prosthodontist in the UK, as we delve into his journey to becoming a dental specialist. Dr. Campbell shares his childhood memories and the influence of his father's dedication to medicine, the importance of finding balance in life, and how witnessing the transformation of a patient's confidence after receiving dentures sparked his interest in prosthodontics.
Managing a dental practice is no easy feat, and we discuss the challenges Dr. Campbell faced, such as dealing with toxic staff and finding the right balance between clinical work and running a business. With insights on effective personnel management strategies and the importance of having a clear culture within the dental practice, Dr. Campbell shares his wisdom on how to delegate tasks while providing opportunities for growth.
Finally, we explore the significance of attitude and taking the initiative to develop professionally. Dr. Campbell emphasizes the need to be 'hungry, humble and smart' in pursuing success in dentistry, and how coaching can help dentists grow both personally and professionally. Don't miss this engaging episode as we uncover Dr. Stuart Campbell's journey to becoming a top prosthodontist and the valuable lessons he has learned along the way.
Are you ready to uncover the secrets of success in dentistry? Join our captivating conversation with Dr. Stuart Campbell, a highly esteemed prosthodontist in the UK, as we delve into his journey to becoming a dental specialist. Dr. Campbell shares his childhood memories and the influence of his father's dedication to medicine, the importance of finding balance in life, and how witnessing the transformation of a patient's confidence after receiving dentures sparked his interest in prosthodontics.
Managing a dental practice is no easy feat, and we discuss the challenges Dr. Campbell faced, such as dealing with toxic staff and finding the right balance between clinical work and running a business. With insights on effective personnel management strategies and the importance of having a clear culture within the dental practice, Dr. Campbell shares his wisdom on how to delegate tasks while providing opportunities for growth.
Finally, we explore the significance of attitude and taking the initiative to develop professionally. Dr. Campbell emphasizes the need to be 'hungry, humble and smart' in pursuing success in dentistry, and how coaching can help dentists grow both personally and professionally. Don't miss this engaging episode as we uncover Dr. Stuart Campbell's journey to becoming a top prosthodontist and the valuable lessons he has learned along the way.
Hi everyone, welcome to series two of the Diary of a Dental Coach podcast. This is series two, episode four. We've had some phenomenal guests on this show. In fact I'll let you into a secret The highest download in the last seven days was actually by our last guest, dr Sanjibandheri. There's a lot of people who wanted to download that and look at that and it was thoroughly inspirational. It was about his journey as an endodontist and being one of the top endodontists in the UK. He shared his personal insight about the importance of looking to specialise early because as time goes on increased responsibilities, families, financial pressures etc. His thoughts were that we should all look to specialise very early.
Speaker 1:Previous to that we had Dr Neil Kattari. He's a writer. A lot of dentists know about him. He writes for all the top dental magazines and journals and even recently I saw a post about the NHS and the case, about the implication of the case against the GDC versus Williams and he had some interesting insights on that case as well. Then the first guest we had was Dr Amman Bharti. Myself went on his podcast actually last week and shared some photos of that and that will be released, hopefully in the next few weeks Without further ado, we've got our special guest this evening. Welcome, dr Stuart Campbell.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure to be on my daster and in terms of your ratings, i'm about to take a massive plummet from the highs of last week. You're probably going to get your lowest downloads once this goes live. Listen. Thanks very much for having me on. I really enjoy your podcast. I've listened to it a number of times and I did listen to Amman's one. Amman was also on my own podcast and he's a great guy and I thought you did a really good job of that interview Excellent.
Speaker 1:I'll actually start off with a bit of an unusual question, because there are people who aren't dentists who listen to this What is a prostodontist and what do they actually do?
Speaker 2:Well, let me give you the A prostodontist is one of the dental specialties There are 14 dental specialties and specialty. Prostodontists is concerned with the replacement of missing teeth or the restoration of form of damaged teeth. Would be probably a remit That would probably encompass things like dental implants, removable partial dentures, complete dentures to restoring mouths that have been damaged that require a full mouth approach, with restorations such as crowns, veneers, and also making aesthetic improvements would all fall under the remit of the prostodontist.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So we're going to journey through your story to becoming one of the top prostodontists in the UK. Very, very well known, especially well known to the football group on myself The football shirts and we'll come to that later on. So my understanding is that you mentioned before we went live. you were born in Glasgow, moved to South Africa for a little while and then moved back to Dundee. Is that right?
Speaker 2:That's pretty much it, yeah. So I was primary schooled more or less from a P2E3 onwards, and the primary school, high school and undergraduate studies in Dundee.
Speaker 1:So One of the things that interested me before we went live and I was obviously. You said your father was a surgeon. Do you think that was one of the deciding factors into why you went into dentistry?
Speaker 2:It had an influence. I think when you have a medical family mom's a nurse as well that it probably has. you know it's a, you know our line of work, you and I it's demanding, isn't it? And it does seep into your family life, it does seep into your personal life And I think with medicine that is certainly probably even more so the case. So there is going to be some influence from a medical family trying to get you involved in a medical profession. My dad absolutely loved. he's retired now but absolutely loved his job.
Speaker 1:Literally. When you look back to your childhood, would you describe it as a happy period?
Speaker 2:That was great. Yeah, had a great time, had a lovely time. Yeah, my parents worked pretty hard but we had good fun. Dad's got a good sense of humour, likes a bit of banter, and my mum also, and so, yeah, it was myself, my brother, my mum and dad And I would say, pretty idyllic.
Speaker 2:We grew up in a place called Newport-Onte, which is just across the water from the metropolis that is Dundee. Newport-onte is lots of families and lots of families who were of similar. There's a big university in Dundee which is a big employer, so lots of people who were university types lived there. We were near big golf courses. St Andrews is only about five or six miles away. We were near lots of good cycling routes and running routes. Right beside our house was a big indoor football centre, so it was just a sport kind of permeated through my childhood. And then at the time, of course, dundee United, who the football team I follow, were pretty successful. They were doing well, so there was a sport was a big part of growing up. But yeah, we had a great childhood. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And the decision to do dentistry at what age, and how did that come about?
Speaker 2:Well, i didn't really want to be a dentist, i wanted to be a journalist. My high school was across the road from a place called DC Thompson, which is a big publishing house in Dundee which people will know in the UK as being the home of the Dandy and the Beano comics. So DC Thompson also produces newspapers and lots of different magazines and things around around the UK and Scotland. And a few people that lived close to us on the same street worked for DC Thompson And I really wanted to get into writing. I was good at that school, good at English, always, you know, just enjoyed writing and creating stories and things like that at school And I just thought that that's what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:At the time the school had said to me look, dc Thompson, these are life jobs. You don't go to DC Thompson for five minutes. These are life or jobs. Only a few of them come up And you know it's very hard to get a job there. It's very hard to get a job in journalism. Most people who do journalism don't end up being journalists. So very pessimistic about it. Probably because they were pessimistic about my prospects generally as a badly behaved school pupil, they probably didn't think it was going to get very far at all. So they dissuaded me from journalism. I think a few of the teachers were quite like would have quite enjoyed me being a you know, a war correspondent, sent out to a war zone or something, but it wasn't something that was strongly encouraged. The school was quite traditional my high school and they were very much into Were your parents influencing your decision.
Speaker 1:What do you?
Speaker 2:say. I think they were just keen that I did anything. To be honest, i think it's something. I think I was very into sport And I think they just thought the sport's too much of an influence to knuckle down a wee bit. It's difficult, isn't it?
Speaker 1:With sport to actually make it to a professional level and be able to be at the top, And I think, as parents you obviously there's always that worry that if you spend all your time dedicated to a particular sport, for example, you know is there going to be a professional job and whether you're going to reach the levels where it's going to generate the income that you need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think that's right. So parents were, you know, they were encouraging about medicine, but I think I didn't show much interest in it, so I don't think they thought they could. They could, you know, encourage me enough that I'd want to make the sacrifices necessary to ensure I got in. And the actual fact that I did get the grades to probably get in which was a surprise to probably everybody that was associated with my education, my teachers especially But I just didn't really appeal to me because I saw my dad particularly, just seemed to not have a good balance. He just seemed to work all the time.
Speaker 1:So was he a hospital or was he a consultant?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was a consultant when I was in school, laterally became a professor, so he was academic and academic surgeon, which is quite a niche. So we did a lot of research. So he wasn't carrying out clinical practice, he was doing research into molecular biology. This was quite a big wig, quite a brainy guy. Innovator, got invited around the world to speak at conferences. You know it was tasked with leading think tanks at the Food Standards Agency. So a very clever guy and very disciplined. You know just would just sit there and do a task and he would do it until it was done. Or is that the easily distracted thing?
Speaker 1:Would you say you looked up to him. In a way, did you Of?
Speaker 2:course you can't not. I mean my dad, we got on great, obviously still got on great. You know we enjoy each other's company, but he just has a very, very strong work ethic And you know, the balance is is there isn't a balance to my mind, it's just pure, pure work and get it done And you know the rewards will come. But you know, i just thought, i witnessed this And I thought so. My friends and their parents, you know, they seem to have a balance. They seem to go on foreign holidays We didn't rate it many holidays And they seem to have nicer cars. They seem to, you know, just have a better, a better balance in life academia.
Speaker 1:Isn't, i suppose, that well paid? No?
Speaker 2:no, he didn't do any private practice. He was offered to do private practice. He ended up as a professor in Newcastle And he was asked by Alan Shearer at the time I don't know if I can say this, i probably can But to do Alan Shearer's hernia when he played for Newcastle United And because he was a professor, that's what he wanted And he said, no, i don't do private practice. So I think his, his, one of his underlings, ended up doing it for Alan Shearer. But yeah, just to me, you know I very much admired what he did, but I just thought you don't have a balance And I just I, you know life's too short. I want a balance, and so that led me to look at jobs that might provide a balance.
Speaker 2:The the long and short of it was my mum, who was she at that time, was working in the general practice as a, as a district nurse. She said why don't you do work experience with the GP? So I did that And I just found it very dull. It was really boring And he seemed to see about 100 patients. It just didn't seem to. I don't know They just you know. To me at that time anyway, i just thought there's no tangibility to this. If tangibility is a word, it was just. You know, we'll refer you here, we'll refer you there, we'll give you this, we'll check this out, we'll review. I just thought, you know, i'm not that interested And then, in desperation of a new set of local dentists, would you do some work experience?
Speaker 2:So I did that with local dentists And I went into his waiting room And I didn't really notice it before as a patient, but he started seeing all these you know family photos of him, you know, on skiing trips and up mountains and in ocean surfing. I thought this looks quite a nice lifestyle. And then got chatting to him And the thing that I remember most was you had a lady come in And obviously this is at the time I had an untrained eye And I thought, wow, she's got a nice set of teeth. And she came in and took her dentures out. I was like, oh my God, wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 2:You know what he's done there And probably what he'd done is just do a standard setup with, you know, shot lander teeth in a three, but I don't know. I thought they were very impressive And I thought that's incredible how you can restore. You know somebody, and this lady immediately lost confidence. You could see it. Although she was okay with me being in the room, you could see covering her mouth and all those things patients do the light bulb moment, or would that happen earlier?
Speaker 1:Do you think that? because it's quite ironic how that moment and now you're a prosthodontist It's kind of like the perfect kind of memory. It's almost like the perfect, perfect experience to get you on that journey to where you are now.
Speaker 2:I suppose it probably was. Yeah, It was the one thing I thought well, what an impact you can make. And then when she put the dentures back in, you know, the lady's personality almost changed. I thought that's quite impressive. You know, this is quite a skill and obviously I didn't know the nuances of what was involved. But just as a layperson, as a pupil, I thought that's an amazing thing to do for somebody And that sparked my interest And I got chatting to him about that sort of sparked an interest. And then I went back for some more work experience And I was quite interested in how he balanced the clinical work with also running his business. And I was also interested in the fact that this guy seemed to be quite a well respected member of the local community where I grew up And he was involved in football coaching And I thought that's quite a nice lifestyle he has, you know, respected, you know, helping people running a business. You know, I think I might like to look into this. So that's that's kind of where it came about.
Speaker 1:So the decision to go to Dundee? was that a natural thing? Did you ever think about the feeding?
Speaker 2:It was a natural thing because because every other university told me to bugger off, so it was. It was a natural thing on that basis. So applied to. I applied when I was in fifth year at high school, so I was 16 when I applied to dental school, which, when I think back now, would I trust the 16 year old me with anything as important as that? The answer is absolutely not, but it's amazing how the 16 year old you make these decisions that shape their entire life Ridiculous really. I think the Americans have a better. You know, do a degree first thing, come back and think about it.
Speaker 1:It's probably an interesting point that you make there, because we've all not really matured by that age. We don't really know what we want to do And we don't really realize the commitment, dedication and hard work that goes towards it, And at the time we're just basically our decision based on the people around us. Usually, most often it's the parents who influence you, Or perhaps nowadays you might have more career advisors, friends and there's more resources out there, But probably back then it was just that small community that you're in And the people that you know who literally influence and shape the rest of your life.
Speaker 2:And of course then you know this was 1994, five, so the internet was known then as the World Wide Web And it was the thing that you had to dial into. That was so painfully slow that I remember a headline a friend of mine shared with me recently from you know, that lofty publication, the Daily Mail, which said Internet is a passing fad, millions switch off. He was a friend of mine who, from school we went on to do it, is very successful in it, and he was sharing this headline at the time which his parents have told him. This it thing you're going into doesn't sound like it's a secure future. And yet I suppose, because of what I was trying to get to there with the internet, was that we didn't live in such a global community. You know you couldn't.
Speaker 2:You know nowadays you can interact with dentists all over the world, no problem. You know you could do it right now. In 1994, my dentist was pretty much in his room working away in his practice And he might see some other local dentists at local meeting And maybe some national dentists have ever went down to a conference in England somewhere. But that would be it And you might. You know it was a bit more isolated than it is now And your accessibility to what dentists you can offer if you're looking into it for the first time, you're not from a dental background was certainly more limited then, i would say, compared to how it is now.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it was a it. So during a university life, is it right that you met your wife at university? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:My wife is also a dentist. She and, like me, go off her small university. She applied to.
Speaker 1:But was she local as?
Speaker 2:well, or did she move from she? she's from Edinburgh originally, so she applied to you know all over the UK as I did. But we both got into pre dental in those days when you in Scotland, because if you're a bit younger they would recommend that you did pre dental, which essentially was just doing your sixth form all over again, but in university. So it was the best year of the whole dental school year, your entire dental career. It was a pass to basically party for a year. It was absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1:So how did it come about, obviously, the relationship with the UDW.
Speaker 2:We were in the same year And the we got paired together in the first BDS year, which was after pre dental, the first year proper, which was anatomy, physiology and biochemistry, all subjects which I considered. certainly physiology I'm going off a tangent here but of all the exams I've ever sat in my life to date and there have been many of them first BDS physiologies without the worst exam ever And I thought it would get easier. I had to cover elements of it for some specialty exams. I thought I'll be a breeze. now Still just as hard A polling exam. You know the Starling curves and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:But and the thing is you're learning this stuff You in first BDS without any clinical experience really, and without any clinical experience at all actually. so you cannot visualize what they're saying. you're trying to get it from a two-dimensional textbook. you think I just I'm just having to parrot fashion trying regurgitate this on a page because I have no understanding really of. you know How this applies to a clinical scenario, because I don't do clinics, because I've just really come out of school. You know very difficult. Anyway, yeah, I met wife. She and I were at the same anatomy dissection table And in the days That was Dundee, that was first year and Dundee, so that was we.
Speaker 2:I don't know what they do now, but at that time we we had cadavers, specimens, human cadavers, and we would do head, neck anatomy dissection on human cadavers, which, again, when you've just left schools, quite an eye opener isn't it to see a cadaver when you've just maybe finished sixth form And you're coming in being presented with that a few months later. So, so, yeah, that's how we met, so, yeah, we bonded over.
Speaker 1:Over what, sorry, over over does the section of fascia? And So how was the experience at Dundee? Did you enjoy it? Do you look back fondly with your memory, friend? Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, it does seem like a long time ago now because I suppose the fairly circuitous route to specialization, which involved in a couple of other degrees, and It does seem like a long time ago now for that reason. So, yes, it was a great time, thoroughly enjoyed. It made some great friends still keep in touch with a good cadre of them and the experience itself was, was, was, was good. It's slightly different for me in that when I started lower, grew up in Dundee, my parents, when I was in sixth year they Relocated to Newcastle. My dad got this professor job in Newcastle. So when I was finishing my My school, my my school career, my dad just taken up this job in Newcastle. So I started freshers week in Dundee in student halls, even though I lived there.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it was, it was quite. It was quite interesting going to my hometown university But my, my family not being there anymore. So it was, it was the best of both worlds in a way. Yeah, i had a great time, some great people there, it was a good laugh and because I guess I don't know if all dental schools are this way, i assume they are, but it's almost like being in high school and away, because you don't mix with the wider University so much, because all your classes are in dental hospital and the dental hospital is kind of Usually a tower style building and you're isolated from the rest of the campus of it. So it was Your friends were all dentists and the people you met were all dentists and the people you socialize with were all dentists.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it was great, loved it and How did you get your first job outside dentistry? Then just come back, naturally.
Speaker 2:The first job as a dentist. As a dentist, yeah, so it it was. I qualified in 2001 and there were two, essentially two, strands to getting a job and one was BT, which is the classic VT route, and it wasn't any. Not, there was no national Selection process at that time. It was essentially here's a list of dentists or VT trainers, here's the profiles printed out on a dot matrix printer and give them a phone and see if you can get an interview, and Some of them would take your call and some of them wouldn't, and you went around for an interview, these practices, and That that was one way. The other way was something called GPT, which I thought sounded better, which gave you two years and you had two days a week in a practice for two years And the other two days a week you were in hospital. So that's what I applied for and I wanted to do it in Edinburgh. There were only four places and You were kind of told others you're very difficult to get into Edinburgh, but I went for the interview and you were interviewed by the practice. So the hospital didn't appoint you, the practice did, and I got like a house on fire with a guy in the practice. So he's like, the job is yours. So we Had a great time.
Speaker 2:He was a lovely man and And then about you know, a cheeky guy as well, good banter, and wouldn't get away with some of the stuff now. But you know you'd say to Bob, listen, can I show you this x-ray? You say, yeah, right, big sigh, throws eyes to heavens. Right, take it through my surgery, come through a patient that's here, right, give us a year. He look up at the light above his chair with the x-ray, make a deliberate this is wet films.
Speaker 2:Now, looked up at the wet film, they take it to the window, look at it again. And they look at it, make this big kind of elaborate, almost John Cleese-esque walk looking at this round of surgery. They'd say, yep, it's definitely an x-ray And that was a type of banter. So it was great, a great time. So I did. It was with him for two years and actually he was a superb clinician, absolutely superb. Despite all his cheekiness and all the rest of it, he really took the work very seriously and you know he would, you would you say he was one of your first proper mentors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i would say yeah. I mean he was essentially a VT trainer, so yeah, he would be the first one, a first proper mentor He was was was very good gifted clinician. You know he was good at good all-rounder, good at endo, good at Cranbridge work and didn't do implants But not many people did. In 2001 It wasn't as prevalent as it is today. He was good at making dentures, just a good, solid, all-round dentist who taught me a lot and He had a very dry wit, which was also I appreciated. And Then two days a week it was at the dental hospital in Edinburgh where we did rotations and oral surgery, pediatrics and restorative, and that was also great. You know getting to, you know working that environments Is a great platform to build on.
Speaker 1:So the journey to being a practice owner, when did that start? after you graduate the house soon after.
Speaker 2:Yes, after qualified I'd finished the oral surgery rotation and I had an idea I might do oral medicine. I even went to the oral medicine conference And my dad was delighted about this because it meant I could do medicine. And so that you know didn't say at the time But yeah, you know, they get the encourage, you don't? these medical people, it's like it's like a, it's almost like a, i think. I think they bloodlet to each other and they, they kind of cut their palms and they, that's their. I'm sure that's what the hippocratic with is. Or they get some kind of tattoo at the SES.
Speaker 2:So soon as I suggested that he was all for it and I'm glad I didn't do that I went to look at medical schools and I Thought about it at the time. But do you know? it was just at the point I thought I still quite enjoy doing cranberry work. I still quite enjoy, you know, i wouldn't mind finding out about these implants. They sound interesting. So if I go into oral medicine I'm gonna give all that, give all of that up. So I decided for a year I'll go into practice. I'll just do another job for a year and I'll still be young, i can still apply. I do MFDS, i've got keep my options open. So I did all that.
Speaker 2:I worked for a guy in Edinburgh called Martin Renne who Had been a protege of my VT trainer and he had an even drier wit than my VT trainer, but he was also an excellent clinician, superb dentist, really enthusiastic, always reading the journal, but, you know, a Great laugh. You know. Just see, same kind of stuff, just always, always a laugh. A great place to work. I love going to work there, martin, i had a great time and he taught me huge amounts. And then I Then thought I don't know what I'm going to do. I really enjoy this. This is, this is great.
Speaker 2:And Just a chance conversation my wife had with her own dentist. He said I'm going to be selling my practice, but this time my wife is also working in the practices in Edinburgh And he said it'd be interesting selling it to. We were only four years out of dental school and then Just thought I was a bit too soon. And, gerald, my wife said, well, i think I would. I think I would regret it if we don't go for it. And And we, we had a conversation with him that was yeah, we are interested, but you just don't you know, maybe it's a bit too soon. Are there any options?
Speaker 1:for. So, in terms of that, just just a little bit more. What was it? was it too soon, in the sense that you didn't feel Clinically ready? was it financially ready? What were the factors of why you felt like you weren't ready at that point?
Speaker 2:And I think we well, we probably didn't. I Don't know if we felt we weren't ready because we did buy it and we very quickly realized we weren't ready Because it doesn't come with a manual and it comes with staff who Don't appreciate you as because you're not the same person that they used to work for.
Speaker 1:And this is interesting and obviously I want to dig a little bit deeper about this experience because I I speak to a lot of people who, especially when they bought a practice And they take over the culture within the practice, is very resistant to the new Ownership, because there's a degree of loyalty to the previous owners sometimes and there's a feeling that obviously when you're in your own, you don't also want to upset people. So you're there trying to implement your style of All, how you want the practice to be, and then you've got staff who don't want to perhaps adapt to that And would you say that was quite similar to what what your experience was.
Speaker 2:I would say our experience was Very difficult, very difficult to the point I thought I would just do. We still have the receipt, can we take it back? And it was on the Friday. He gave us the keys and we never saw him again. So on the Monday, there you go and, by the way of, booked you, and he had been booking in patients for us In the same way that he ran his clinic. So it'd be 40 patients booked in 40 and You'd just be. It would just be chaos, just be surviving the day. So you couldn't even consider the running of the business. So my wife had to come out.
Speaker 1:What kind of model was that? was that a deeper item model?
Speaker 2:Yeah, in Scotland's a fee per item. So he was an NHS dentist entirely. I'd say 99.9% NHS lovely man Served his patients Well. That is best for his patients. Quite frankly, did you know what he could to keep for permit? you know to maintain them and to help them. You know Look after. You know maintain their teeth. It's the best of his ability within an NHS framework And he was a good guy. Not one patient as a bad word to say them. So he's doing something right. But Equally, he didn't have time to come out of his surgery to, to, to run the business. So when we wanted to have a bigger hands-on role, understandably the people who were there and who were used to having more control didn't like that. Because why would you like that If someone's going to come in and tell you this is changing and that's changing? and And they, i think, had been given the impression by him He kept saying it's just business as usual, it's gonna be the same, and you thought was it both of you working at the practice and what?
Speaker 1:how many surgeries was the practice?
Speaker 2:and it was four at that time and four surgeries. And There we were both working clinically and Cheryl, my wife, had to come out of clinical practice because one of us had to have a role in running it because It was getting run into the you know essentially was being. You know it wasn't being run the way we wanted it to be run. So in order to get the time to do that, she had to cut down her clinical hours to then Focus on the running of the business and that was a traditional setup where you had a practice manager perhaps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was yeah inside. Yeah, yeah, correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. He said that was where the problem was The person or the individuals that were trying to manage that side of things. What, what was it in particular?
Speaker 2:that was the issue or the issue that you face at the time so the the owner, he didn't do anything other than see the patients. He didn't have any role in the business, in the You know the goals of the business in terms of you know the financial act really nothing. They didn't eat, almost like, worked as an associate for the staff and the staff ran it as their practice. And There are a number of situations. for example, all of the staff were related. So you you can't fall out with one, or you fall out with all, and. And there were things like, for example, where's so-and-so? Yeah, let's, i'm gonna make up a name here. Um, where's Jane?
Speaker 2:Jane's a way to get her hair nails done. She's supposed to be doing this, yeah, but she always gets her hair nails done on a Thursday. That's always been the case. So that's now one hour. So they'd say to us that's now her TNCs, so they know all their rights, all this kind of stuff. You'd say, well, i don't think it really is our TNCs. And you know there'd be things like you'd go in see, oh, i've got your bacon roll. That's very kind of who do I money And You just be taking out the till and paying for it, you know, and there would be patients who would not be charged because they knew them.
Speaker 1:You know, i don't worry about it, it's free to you and numerous things like that and they'd be obviously sort of an organized group of individuals collaborating, working together, perhaps not working the best interest of the dental practice and perhaps the previous culture and just continuing it and hoping that you guys don't matter, don't care about this, this culture that's developed. I think that's accurate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i would say that's accurate. And alongside that you've got you're seeing 40 patients a day who, again, you're not the old dentist, you're some new guy, young, young guy, who's You know, coming in telling them that he's all this stuff done. They're saying, well, you know, the last guy didn't do that. So the patients the patients equally hate you. So it was a difficult place to be, a steep learning curve.
Speaker 1:At least there's two of you for a lot of people. Yeah, you're on there on your own and you're trying to make friends with people and trying to support the transition, but then You know there's a lot of resistance to the change as well. So, yeah, tell us how. Perhaps you and your wife collaborated and thought how are we going to best deal with this scenario without, i suppose, falling out with loads of people?
Speaker 2:Well, i think the scenario that well, the solution to that was Chris Barrow, who we work with now. We didn't work with him then. I wish we had, but we just didn't know about him And he was I think you're just starting out and then. So I didn't know Chris Barrow, he's a dental coach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we work with him now, but what he would?
Speaker 2:say is when you're dealing with this is hit, these are his words. When you're dealing with teeth, these are his words. When you're dealing with terrorists, you don't negotiate. You never negotiate with terrorists. You bring in the Green Berets. So that, in fact, what we did, we got employment law people in and we got them to come in and do appraisals and we just essentially, performance manage people to the point where it's a bit like in these prison dramas. You know when the new inmate comes in, if he wants to make a stance, what he has to do is go and essentially punch the hardest prisoner in the whole jail and everybody else kind of shuts up. So performance manage the biggest troublemaker and then the rest of them just left. They just literally just one by one left.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, i suppose, the way I describe it, i suppose is a toxic culture that's developed within the practice that doesn't serve the interests of the business well And obviously, due to employment law and due to all these regulations, it's very difficult to get rid of toxic staff and toxic people who, either intentionally or unintentionally, are causing harm to the practice and the business as well as affecting the way perhaps the owners want to run the practice. But yeah, like you said, the best way is to deal with the person who's the most toxic first and then, once you get rid of that one, everyone else will realize that this isn't a situation we want to really fight, or either we get on board with what they're saying or we leave. And obviously the strength was on the power. It's a bit like bullies, isn't it? When you've got a bully, the main bully, once you deal with the main bully, they all run off, don't they?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, and it's amazing how that culture can quickly spread. You have to, and that's why it's so important in your business to have a essentially what do you stand for? You must have something you stand for and you must have a culture, because if you don't, someone else will develop their own culture and that can spread, like this happened in our practice, in the practice under the previous ownership, and that's why you kind of see these things and some people roll their eyes and it's very important to have that.
Speaker 2:So, how do you think you've?
Speaker 1:got the right people in, because I suppose once you get rid of the people, that you didn't want in the practice.
Speaker 1:How did you get the right people in And how do you decide that?
Speaker 1:Because this is one of the things that I find interesting, because, especially nowadays and even when I was applying as well for practices, people just generally go for perhaps the wrong candidate, and it's something that I had a little discussion on on Facebook, i see, recently, because somebody was trying to suggest a potential contract, for example, for associates, and there were things like Golden Hello in there and a tie-in period and things like that.
Speaker 1:And when I did my ILM7 in coaching one of the and in other business areas, one thing I noticed is that in dentistry, we don't really do too much testing or making sure we've got the right candidate, whether that's psychometric testing, personality type, whether that's the right person that aligns with the goals and vision of the practice, and a lot of problems, i believe, happen because there's either someone's been sold something or missold something in between and then they've taken on the role and it's not what they expected or vice versa, they're not what they expected And there's not enough communication between each other prior to taking on a role, and I think so, yeah, i just wanted to see how you perhaps navigated that and got the right personnel in. Or perhaps coach the practice to adopt to your leadership style in your way of how you wanted the practice to run.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think the first thing is, as I say, you have to have a. You know, what do we stand for? This is what we stand for, this is what we don't stand for. So that's, this is what goes in this team. This is what doesn't go, and you know, it's okay if you don't agree with that, but this is not the right team for you, then Okay, it's okay. If you don't want to, you know, in football terms, it's okay. If you don't want to play in the Champions League on Wednesday, that's okay. But you know, we're Man City, we're Man United, that's what we do. So if you don't want to do that, you might be better off signing, for you know West Ham, although they just won a European trophy, aren't they? So that's a bit harsh, but you know, but you establish that.
Speaker 2:And then I think what you have to do is, as well as that, there has to be roles and responsibilities, and those, those aren't just you know something you pay lip service to. These are your roles and responsibilities, and you've got to accept people are going to get things wrong. You must delegate those things and you must then follow up. You know, for instance, that's okay, i'm not going to take this off you. You're going to do this, but I'm afraid we're going to have to perform as manager because this is your job, it's not my job. I'm employing you to do this job And, equally, you've got to give the opportunity for those people to grow, because you know it can be a job, particularly dentistry, i think, when you're in a practice setting where people do feel a bit stagnated at least that's what a lot of people say. But, as we touched on earlier, you know we've got, you know, massive access to global communities. Now there is no reason why you should feel stagnated, providing the opportunities are right for you. But you have to give those opportunities. But equally, the person that is working on your team has to take them. You know, for instance, one of the things, one of the books that I read recently, is an author called Patrick Lencioni And he talks about the ideal team player, and this is a book was recommended to me by Chris Barrow And essentially three. There are three characteristics of the ideal team player Hungry, humble, smart. Now, and it's so true, so true, we were you, i know.
Speaker 2:You know I host a podcast as well, and on that podcast, last week, in this episode, we had a dentist from Knightsbridge called Manrena Road on the podcast and Manrena had worked for straight out of ET. She went to work for Harrods the dentist And I said that's incredible, how did you get that job? So there was hundreds of applicants, as you would expect, but she worked for a guy. The dentists that worked there with her and who was essentially mentoring her was the dentist that was on the TV show 10 Years Younger And you might remember that program on Channel 4 about 10 or 15 years ago, and she said he would mentor her. But you know it was expected that.
Speaker 2:You know we're really busy. We're going to have to work Saturday. Are you going to work Saturday? We're really busy. You know, if you want me to check these preps, you only give you some feedback. You have to wait for me to the end of my clinic And then I'll give you the feedback, or you know I can't give you that information now.
Speaker 2:You know I'm going to ask you to do this for me And if you do that for me, that frees up some time And I'll then help you with that. Now you think that sounds reasonable, but so many people are not willing to do that. So many people would say I'm not doing the Saturdays, i'm not going to work late, i'm not going to see the stuff you don't want to see in return for your mentoring, because I want to go home And again. That's okay, but it means you may be not right for this particular team. So if the opportunities are there, you think the right person needs to be there to take them. You know, and it does come back to those three characteristics Hungry, humble, smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think what you're referring to. There is attitude, isn't it? 100% attitude? Do you have 100% work? Are you willing to put in that extra, you know, extra 100% or extra mile to go further and develop your skills? And it's an interesting thing, isn't it? Sometimes you've got to not see your job as a, i suppose, as a nine to five kind of traditional way of doing things You know you've got to, i suppose, sometimes help perhaps the principal or the people that are expected to help with your mentorship or development by doing these extra things like staying behind, like you said, like working weekends perhaps helping other dentists out or helping the principal out, sometimes with emergencies, and doing little bits just to, i suppose, get some good will. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we'll go back to football again. How many times do you hear people I know you're a Man United fan How many times do you hear they say let's say one of your, you know, cristiano Ronaldo, how all the other places you know you used to he was the first on the last off the training pitch, always practice and free kicks, always the last to leave, always in the gym. There's no accident, you know there's no accident. these, the people who are successful, they do have those characteristics. They will, you know, as you say, have the attitude take what they can get, learn what they can learn. and you've got to be hungry, you know. that's the key thing, as well as the other things as well. You know, as Chris Barrow says hungry, humble, smart means hungry. You're keen, you want to learn. humble, you're not a dick, and smart, you're able to talk to people, you know, without being arsed.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That's a solid advice. So would you say that you adopt this kind of attitude throughout your career of wanting to keep developing, getting better?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, i'd like to say so, but probably some people say, no, you are a dick, so maybe not. But no, i think. Yeah, i mean, you have to be in a hungry. Yes, i think so. I think there's always something you can learn from somebody. That's one of the things we ask people when they come to our practice for a job. And it might be somebody straight out of AT and I'll ask the question what can you teach me? And I'll say, well, i can't teach you anything because you know you're a prosodontist. What am I going to teach you? You must be able to teach me something you know And you do. You must always realise that anybody can teach you. Everyone has you know. In terms of being humble, you're a part of a team. You know you can't do everything. People in the team should be able to help you grow as well.
Speaker 1:This is interesting because this is exactly what the philosophy of coaching is. It's about encouraging you to learn and learn more about yourself. So you're a facilitator and you're helping the person understand the problem and get clarity on the problem by learning more about the problem. So you're in fact encouraging them. So it's a very, very coaching attitude towards adopting a coaching approach to things, where you know you're always wanting to learn And I think successful people always keep that open mind where they're willing to listen to someone, they're willing to take that argument.
Speaker 1:And I think myself I've found a lot of resistance in dentistry, especially when I speak to practice owners because I'm not a practice owner myself. They think I don't understand the problem or I don't. I don't understand, perhaps, how some of their things that stress them out or the logistics of how things work. But in fact I think I do and my job is actually to see it from a different vantage point And, especially as a coach, most of the time you're coaching people outside that sector.
Speaker 1:Even so, it doesn't necessarily mean that you always need to be in that sector to understand the problem. Sometimes you can be outside of and the best coaches are the ones that actually you know. Teach the coachee the problem and get them to understand the problem. And coaching really works on the principle that you can find the solution to your problems yourself by unlocking you through asking incisive questions. So it works on the principle that you already have the potential to solve your problem And a lot of the performance coaching principles are based on this idea that you know you have that potential to solve. Your own problem is just you've never been coached or asked the right questions to be able to find a solution to those problems.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think that's very interesting And I think a lot of the time that there is a reticence, it's chatting to dentists the other day And I said look, there was someone who was mentoring an implants and they said, oh, you know, i could do that with the implant ground. I could fit this implant ground. I said, ok, now what I just want to make you aware of is that there's some key differences in the screws that you might not be aware of. For instance, you know there are screws that are branded that will fit the drivers you have. There are screws that might not be branded, that your laboratory have used rather than using the manufacturer's parts. They could be a little bit different. There are screws that could be damaged, so you might need to change those. And also there are the CAD screws so they wouldn't work with the standard driver. It might be the technicians have to do an angle correction And they said, oh, it's interesting, could you write me a handout on this?
Speaker 2:No, go ahead So I can give you. I can tell you what I find out about it. But what kind of handout do you want? Oh, just like a PowerPoint or something? Really, i don't think so. No, i don't think I could do that. No, I think it would be more meaningful if you looked out for yourself, and that you'd probably remember it better. But rather than me handing it to you Yes, it's interesting as well.
Speaker 1:Like you said, i think nowadays that the whole idea, especially for the younger generation, just to Google everything. But there is something in where you problem solve yourself and you know through troubleshooting and trial and error and working out what works for you and what doesn't work for you, rather than just always looking for the easy approach. And sometimes you have to think batterily and think differently rather than you know, like I said, finding the answer out. You know easily, like through PowerPoint or through Google. I mean, these things are there to help you, but I think there is something in where you yourself use your own analytical mind and skills to work out and solve a problem.
Speaker 2:Absolutely 100%. Yeah, yeah it's. Yeah, i think it is. You know you were going, you were asking about, you know, creating the ideal team. But yeah it is. It is always an evolution, because then you get a good team and like, like a football team, you get a good team and sometimes you lose a couple of key players. Then replacing them is always difficult, isn't it? You get these teams that are always excellent at recruitment you're like bright and always fantastic at sourcing these players that nobody else could have seems to, and maybe they are fantastic at sourcing players, but maybe it's the culture of Brighton. Maybe that's what's making these guys good. Maybe it's not the sourced excellent players, maybe it's their culture. And that's kind of what you try to do recruit people based on those three qualities, but have the culture that you help them grow.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think culture is obviously everything and creating that environment where it encourages.
Speaker 1:That's why I'm particularly passionate about creating a coaching culture, because a coaching culture is where it encourages and empowers each individual person in the team to get better and improve all the time, and mistakes and where things go wrong aren't seen, as you know, as a bad thing.
Speaker 1:It's seen as a learning experience and it's seen as ways to get better at something. So, failing at something And I think that's important because if you create a culture where everyone knows that even if they mess up for whatever reason, they're happy to take responsibility for it but also then can improve and know that it won't happen again And I think if you create an environment where people feel safe, holding their hands up, saying yeah, sorry about that, and then move on from that situation and that's not held against a person, i think you'd see, definitely see growth in that environment and that practice. So how do you feel about, i suppose, did your wife work regularly? I mean, i suppose, is that a good thing, a bad thing, i suppose? how did you feel about working with your wife in a professional environment?
Speaker 2:I mentioned about my VT trainer. My VT trainer, bob, had a two surgery practice. It was he and I And his wife also had a two surgery practice a couple of miles away in the centre of Edinburgh, and she it was her and an associate. I said why do you have a two surgery practice And your wife has? why would you just have one practice and the two of you work together? They said I'm going to give you a golden rule in dentistry. And he said the things he would call the always rules. This is an always rule. You must always do this, and this always rule is that you never, ever, ever, ever work with your wife. And he was probably right.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's, it's, i don't know. You know you've got It's different. I think the main reason is because then what happens, is it? it's like a tie-dye t-shirt. The dentistry just tie dyes into your personal life, doesn't it? and it spreads around the. You know, and before you know what you think, you know we're out for a meal. Now We're talking about Jane again. Now we're talking about the guy who cuts the grass, again. You know That. That that's where the problem is. It's not working with your wife, it's the fact it, you don't, you don't get a break do you sometimes, because you have the same experience, you sing sing at same people.
Speaker 2:They in the out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're talking about the practice. Like you said, you never really, i suppose, get time to grow apart.
Speaker 2:So that's what you're doing.
Speaker 1:It's the heart. Heart grow fond of it. You don't get that.
Speaker 2:The opposite effect. It is difficult and, yeah, would I advise people to do it, i think. For that, that reason, i think the thing, the good thing, listen, the good things are you get somebody can trust. You've got someone who you can implicitly trust, who has an investment in you and an investment in your business, so that is invaluable. Joking aside that you're not gonna get anyone that's gonna have your back to that extent, unless it's probably a parent, even a sibling probably won't have your back to that extent, but You're you know, as I say, the payoff is that your personal life. You could be sitting out for a meal, downtime, and it invariably creeps in and that becomes stressful. It becomes a source of stress and times where you should be relaxing and not Using to decompress you, you, you can become stressful. Which is it? Which is the drawback?
Speaker 1:I think the other thing probably You might not have considered is, i suppose the people around you So said they have a problem with you, they'll automatically assume that you're gonna be telling your wife, for example. So kind of can create, suppose barriers because you feel like You know, i mean like sometimes can fall out with one owner but not the other, yeah, yeah, and things like that, and sometimes you're conflicted because They might have an issue with perhaps you and then they have to speak to your wife And then they'd realize obviously she has that bias as well, kind of thing to all do in a way, and that that can be probably quite tricky, i suppose, as an employee or Working in a practice like that. But equally so, if you're on good terms With either of you, then naturally you know it's gonna help on both sides.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think, yeah, there is always that as well. And if your wife's pissed off at you because you've been away football all weekend And you know Jane comes in on Monday and says he's been doing this again, then your wife will probably believe it more than the. So you've got that as well. So, yeah, it's, it's a challenging one, but I don't know, if I was doing it all again, would we do? I don't, i don't, i don't know. As I say this, there's pros and cons. Equally, doing it all by yourself is quite isolating as well. You know, and quite you know, it's quite a lot of, quite a huge burden to take. But I think you really do have to have, you know, good people around you they can trust. And but you know, i do think that Pro away for a small business, a family run business The names in the title, isn't it? you go to have some family involved.
Speaker 1:How did the decision come about for you to specialising prostadontics then?
Speaker 2:And well, primarily, you know when I was describing the practice that we bought and you know seeing these 40 patients a day and not even knowing where to start, because you know the previous dentist, you know, you know, good guy, as I said, but he'd just been patching things up to the end degree and you be seeing these mouths just Got, they just reach the threshold. You think it's not even holding up anymore, it's just it's starting to crumble. So we need to do something. And lots of these cases were Okay. So I thought I'd love to be able to treat us, but I didn't know where to start and So I thought I'll do a course.
Speaker 2:So I went to do Paul Tipton's course and they did his restorative course and He explained things in a way that I just never had explained to me before. Just, he's an excellent teacher. And I thought, wow, this, this, this makes sense. You know just the concepts that you were aware of And from undergraduate days that you knew about, and you thought, yeah, what does that mean? again, he made them Very the way he explained them, they made perfect sense and he was able to apply them to clinical practice. In a way. You thought I could go back and do that tomorrow, which is probably the hallmark of a very good teacher in a very good course.
Speaker 1:So I did Yeah, he's popular amongst the dentists, even now. Yeah, I have heard him speak, very, very articulate, very good teacher, and I suppose the previous guest I'm and Barty Went on went on his show as well. He was really sort of saying huge mind's creation, you know, and he does it because he loves teaching, he loves the fact that you know He can impart this knowledge and experience and be able to Help dentists, i suppose, reach their full potential as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he was very so he. He was a kind of eye opener and I thought this is, this is pretty good. And you obviously meet dentists on the course and people are do Those the dentist on those those courses were? we're not just doing that course, we're looking at other courses and then that started a bit of a postgraduate. You know a bit of a trend for me doing courses and taking things back and You can start to see how people are taking this on in the practice. We're starting to build a wee bit of a cohort of this type of treatment, quite enjoying this. And Paul Tipton always talked about this guy who'd influenced him, called Mike Wise, and I then I think he wrote an occlusion book.
Speaker 1:Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, graduate, being told to to get that from the library and yeah. Fight to actually get a hold, to get hold of it Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah so he wrote the occlusion book. So Mike Wise At the time was running courses in London but Tim didn't really market them. He was one of these guys that didn't need to market. You know, you went down to the course and you You it was a tiny, you know. I remember hearing about it, so I think I can't remember. I found out about it. I think we just I just googled the practice or yellow paper, whatever. I searched up its practice and it was on his website as a little tab courses. So it does a restorative course. I'm gonna do even know if this website is up to date. I'm gonna email and I went down in. The course was absolutely full, full and It was absolutely superb.
Speaker 2:And he was a visiting professor at the Eastman. He'd written a text but called failure in the restored dentition, so essentially it was what I was seeing. It was how do you manage? Mouths are mangled and these are the steps? and you thought wow, and he was meticulous. You know just, everything had to be right. But not only that, he was very up-to-date. He would change his opinion on things based on new evidence, real, you know, the top of the top of the range in terms of an educator and a clinician and I got on very well with him and He was very generous with his time. This is a big. He was a big, big name, this guy. I mean really big name, and people might not know him now, but you know, consultants would know him.
Speaker 2:So I said to Mike you know what I'd love to be able to do, all this stuff You do all the time He's a what are you specializing process on tix. I said I, i know, but I'm this, but this time I'd be. I was about eight or nine years qualified in the world of practice. I'm all. That's not really possible because I'm eight or nine years qualified. I've got practice. I his. This is why you need to kind of associate yourself with driven people. And he was like so He said you know, he's specializing in the United States. And he said I went and specialized in the United States at the time I was married with a young child and I went across to Indiana and did it. I said, oh, that's all very well for you. Well, it wasn't all very well for me, you know.
Speaker 2:And he then starts to just apply. So I kind of did a sidestep. I thought I'll do a master's as a compromise. So I did a master's and thinking that would be the answer. And again, it gave you a good bit of training And certainly it was a good platform, but I still am not quite at a level where I can do what he's doing or take on these cases. So I was with him for three years doing his courses and study clubs and so on, and then at the end of it he said he was going to be retiring, so I think that was about 2014.
Speaker 2:And he was at that time, especially my masters, my supervisor and the masters was also a guy like that, that type of attitude, that really driven personality Kind of guy. You just think this guy's a force. Both of these people were forces of nature Forces of nature, and they both said the same thing. I thought you know what I'm going to start applying. So once I'd made the decision, i just started applying And it was I think I'll reverse a little bit just prior to that. And I made the decision. I thought what I have to do now is get a CV that will allow me to compete with people who've been in the hospital, because I've been in practice. And that was quite difficult because the CV had to be. You know, you had to have publications, you had to have teaching experience, you had to have postgraduate qualifications, you had to have references, you had to have presentations at conferences. So, one by one, i ticked off those boxes while working in practice to get myself to a position where I can apply without being laughed at the door. And yeah, so that in itself, by the time you do that, to get your CV ready, you think I am ready to do this. And I've got these people who are forces of nature telling me I'm ready. So, yeah, applied, and the mic was his suggestion was London and the Eastman and or Kings, and that's kind of what I had in mind. But we had a practice And at the time Edinburgh was running a program, but it didn't run every year It ran.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes it ran, sometimes it wasn't very clear. You couldn't really get a clear answer. And I applied to it and they said we're not running, it, apply again. You know, we'll let you know, and didn't they? I don't know. I mean these programs, i guess it's been some funding, it depends on availability, consultants, and you know, i know now. But long story short, edinburgh then came up with a program which I applied to and ultimately got on, and so then in Edinburgh, which was great, and I think, had I done it in London, that would have been a very difficult thing because at the time we had one young child and a practice And I think that you know, i don't think it was commutable. You couldn't go then there four days and come back for weekends. Well, do you know what You could have done that? You could have done that, but it just would have been very but I put a big strain on your personal life. So I was very glad to do it in Edinburgh.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and how did it impact your practice? When do you know like I'm ready, i'm confident? Or was it just keep practicing the cases first and then build it up? How did that journey start for?
Speaker 2:you What it gives you that a course doesn't give you, or what a master's doesn't give you is it gives you the ability to work within a multidisciplinary team, and that is something you can't really get anywhere other than a hospital or in a specialist practice. And I guess to work in a specialist practice you have to be a specialist, so presumably you've worked in a hospital to get there. So that's what it gives you. So it's this kind of multidisciplinary team. So it's full mouth care. It's working with you know disciplines overlap.
Speaker 2:It's having the knowledge, which discipline you're having, that working knowledge. It's ensuring that your records are, you know, flawless or as flawless as they can be. It's kind of being immaculate with your planning and your preparation. That's what it teaches you. It really teaches you those principles In terms of doing a crown prep and things like that. you know that you know how to do a crown prep, but what you perhaps don't know is how to fit it into the framework of a full mouth rehab. That involves multidisciplinary care And you and it also gives you sound decision making. So I think those are the things that specialist training really gives us.
Speaker 1:It's very like advanced dentistry as well, isn't it? You know, because you're having to take a full mouth approach to things. I suppose you should do anyway. But we generally, like most general practitioners, we just fix the problems we see and the fix the problems of the patient sees and just deal with that. Where there's obviously yourself, you've got to think about the order in which perhaps you do things and how that might impact them, And there's a lot more complex decisions and treatment planning. That goes on with your kind of specialty.
Speaker 2:I mean absolutely. So it certainly certainly gives you that, and there are. You know, i'm glad I did it because it was a, it was a kind of ambition for a long time and it was a great privilege to do it and work with some fantastic people who are all friends to this day. And you know, had I not done it, it would have been a regret for me. And even if I got to that level and there are many people practicing out there who are not specialists but practice to my mind the specialist level I don't think, you know, being a specialist makes you, you know someone who's doing a high quality work. It doesn't make you suddenly better than them, but what it did do for me was it allowed me to immerse myself in the discipline, work within a team and you test myself really, and that's I'm glad I did it. And you know whether it means anything or not to some patients it means something and you know to referring dentists often means something.
Speaker 1:So do you have any regrets when you look back in your career Or anything that you look back on and think maybe I could have handled that differently or done something different?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it would have been good to you know, as I say, I'm not from a dental background. I didn't have enough experience, I felt at the time, to make a decision on a specialty at the outset And I think if I'd made a decision on specialty training at an earlier stage that would probably have been an advantage for me. But equally, you know, I have had a very good experience in both practice and also in laterally specialist work which I've really enjoyed. But I think now practice, most of the main, if you like, pillars of modern dentistry. They are found within the practice setting, You know, if you consider those to be digital dentistry, dental implants, I guess, alignment, you know, orthodontic alignment treatment, clear aligners and probably aesthetic dentistry, Most of those four pillars of modern practice which is you know, really what's driving the industry, because this is where the money is.
Speaker 2:These are billion dollar industries. So there's inevitably digital aligners and implants that are going to drive how the industry moves forward. They are pretty much found in practices. They're not found in hospital clinics. That doesn't mean to say hospital clinics are also pioneering things. Of course they are. But I think now there's certainly, you know, that level of growth. If you look at when I qualified in 2001,. if you talk to a general dentist who had qualified in 1981, they would have said the course I did in 1981 when I qualified, largely similar to the one you did when you qualified in 2001. Now, if we fast forward to 2000 and let's call it 23, we go back to 2000,. you know, what do you do now in your practice that you still did at undergraduate level? Probably not. There's probably some things, but probably not It's probably there's been a huge change, you know. Yeah, and those are the things that have driven that, those four areas.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to ask you about coaching, and obviously you mentioned or made reference to Chris Biro as one of your coaches, one of you still use. How did that come about and how did the interesting coaching come about?
Speaker 2:Interestingly, it came about because I finished the specialist training and I was just looking for the next career move and, having done that training was a little bit skint and I thought My practice is essentially a general practice which is supported me through the training. You know I, you know, worked in the practice when I could and it was associate led primarily, and but I Just thought, you know, maybe I'll work in the hospital, maybe I'll work in a specialist referral clinic. So actually that's that's what happened, and some of the guys I work with in the hospital setting consultants had said to me look, you know, there's a, we work part-time at specialist current is an opening there, putting a good word for you. I thought that's great And I'm coming for me, said Very good things and here about to finish, would you like to come and discuss a job? So I thought it's a great. What I'm gonna do now is sell my practice, but in order to get the best return for it, i'm gonna get a business coach, just so we have everything in order.
Speaker 2:So we've got Chris Barrow in and the remit to Chris was Chris would like to sell my practice and what I'd like to do is go and work in this specialist referral clinic and as an associate. So He then said well, this is what you need to do, so you need to do this and this and this and make these changes and do this, and then it'll become very sellable. So we did the changes and then when you do the all the changes, you kind of think I quite like it. Now This is quite nice. No, i don't know if I want to sell it and. But Chris then started doing the numbers and said it my advice is don't sell it. My advice is now focus on this.
Speaker 2:That's like, well, you know, i Feel a bit loyalty to this clinic to give me an opportunity and I really like the team there and the clinical director was a It's a great guy and he taught me a lot. So I actually stayed in that clinic for five years, working there part of the week and working my own practice part of the week. But it just got to a point where Then COVID hit and you think I don't want to sell my practice now because we were COVID and it's a bit uncertain, and then Went back and it was kind of 50 50 between the two and then my product starts. You start getting referrals and it starts to build and build. You think I Can't do both, you know. So I ended up leaving the specialist clinic to focus on my own practice. So it's kind of a total 180, but that's how Chris initially got involved. We got Chris involved so we could sell our business.
Speaker 1:But were you always interested in coaching or how did the meeting and with Chris come about?
Speaker 2:I Think it came about because because of that And I'm just moving here because I'm gonna just put my phone in because it's gonna die and that would be, that would cut Me off on midstream, god forbid and so And it came about through a good friend of mine from University called James Hamill, and James is the Richard Branson of dentistry. James is One of these guys. Again, he's a force of nature And James happens to be the owner of a company called chorus 3d, which is a 3d printing company, and also he is the distributor of a product called chrome, which is a full-arch implant product from the States. It's a really innovative guy, james, and I was chatting to him and he said I said I need to speak to a business coach. You look, chris barrel, that's it. I don't guy. No, you've used Chris. He's like That's the person you need to speak to.
Speaker 2:And then another mutual friend, who's who sounds like Chris Barrow. His name is Chris Barrowman. He's got about 10 or 11 practices across Scotland. He said the same thing and these are people that you trust and you like all the people that you like and trust say This is who you need to use. That's how it came about and I had a conversation with Chris and I just I liked him. So, yeah, that's how it worked.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Would you encourage others to use a business coach or a dental coach?
Speaker 2:I think some people. How do you think?
Speaker 1:coaches have helped or helped you. You know from a business perspective as well, because I was at clinicians. This is not something we get taught anywhere. Yeah, how to run a business And what are the key drivers and what are the strengths and weaknesses and things like that. And so how do you think coaching helped you, understand where you wanted to go and your business?
Speaker 2:I think with a coach, the number one fair coach provides for you. Well, not number one thing. One the important things is accountability. The coach will, you know, give you feedback and they will you know it's like a mentor. You can self-teach your thing. You know, we're intelligent people, we can self-teach. But if you don't get that accountability and feedback, how do you know how you're getting on, how do you know if you're not going on the wrong tangent or interpreted something the wrong way? And I think there is.
Speaker 2:You know, i think dentistry now is becoming More of a. There's a recognition now where we don't have general dentists doing everything. You don't have a guy is, you know, doing all the endo and doing all the periwin. All because we understand that. You know There are people who are good at some things that, no, not you can't. It's very difficult to be good at everything. Now there are people that can be good at everything. Of course there are, and you know, but there's not many of them. You know there's the American athlete, bo Jackson, who was an all-star NFL player and in the offseason He was an all-star baseball player, but there's not many Bo Jackson's around. You know, most people are specialized or they're good at certain things and not good others.
Speaker 2:Now, business is not something We're taught in dental school. It certainly wasn't when I was an undergraduate, and You know, i don't even think we knew what we were going to get paid before we qualified. Nobody, there was no. This is what the STR gives you a member in 50 year the technicians in the pros and onto the lab. We try and wind us up by saying you know what you'll get paid for an NHS amalgam? You get about ten quids and we laughed. Well, i write ten quid. It was worse, it was about seven pounds, fifty, um. So they overestimated it.
Speaker 2:But the point is that The the business is not something that you're taught and unless you come from a background where maybe you've worked in a family business or whether you've had family people who are Savvy in that, or a student in business, you need somebody to mentor you and that's that's where a business coach is helpful. And There are many things in the business of dentistry. They're quite unique to dentistry, but if you're busy in a clinical day and You're not aware of those things, then You when are you gonna get them? gonna get snippets here and there. So, having someone to give you a framework and give you some protocols and give you some suggestions, and that's based on experience. Then is Is is is hugely valuable, you know.
Speaker 1:Hugely valuable, i think, that's for any form of coach absolutely, and I think obviously there is Obviously non, non judgmental and it's confidential. So sometimes you don't even want to go to People you know, because either they've got this biased agenda or conflict of interest And so you can't even share your suppose deeper secrets about your business to to people. So I think I think that's the important thing as well, that obviously it's non judgmental. They've got a lens on your Or a magnify certain areas of your business that you've not really seen or looked at, but you said that's a fair assessment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think it is. I think you do, you do have to. You know it's very difficult to look at your business objectively. You know, because you do have an emotional attachment, because you're dealing, you know it's your business, it's a family-run business, you know you've invested time and effort.
Speaker 2:When you, when you invest time and money, it's very difficult for someone to see you go in the wrong direction. So it's one of the things I like to do is running, and one of the things when you're doing long distance running that really depletes you mentally Is if you discover I've just run three kilometers in the wrong direction. You know, and it's a little bit like that in business, if someone sits down says you've just spent that time, money And it's completely the wrong thing to do, it's hard to hear that and And I think, as you say, you're not going to take, it's difficult to take that from people within your business And because you have that emotional attachment, you have a coach who's coming in as an outsider, as an external source, you're more likely to listen to those things because they are hard to hear.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think we'll finish off the final bits of the podcast on, obviously, as opposed your interests. It's interesting because you're wearing a man United shirt United shirt podcast and yes when I asked for a headshot, you sent me a 1989 Liverpool shirt And obviously for the viewers and listeners out there, obviously you're a very keen Collector of football shirts. Tell us how that came about.
Speaker 2:And I think I think with we are in a very demanding and stressful job and you must have an outlet. I really think you have to have something that is not dentistry, something that you get involved with, because that that does ease your stress. And I've got a couple of things one's running and the other one's collecting football shirts. And that came about. I've always, you know, when I was a kid he got them for birthday presents and so on and Christmas presents. And it started off going on holiday. You know, when I was going on holiday by myself, without my parents, i would go and buy a football shirt from the holiday destination. So Went to places like Prague, i'm gonna buy a sparta Prague top. I went to, you know, barcelona by a barcelona shop And then gradually, you know, i thought there's no point in buying one from a place I haven't been to now quickly Dispelled that principle and just started buying them for Various teams of light.
Speaker 2:Then it grows arms and legs, you become involved in these communities and people say my goal is to collect All the shirts in the 1994 World Cup. So then you start that kind of collection. And then there's I'm gonna start, i'm gonna collect all the French players alike. So what you maybe can't see on this shirt is on the back of it. It has canton, a number seven on it. Yeah, so You start collecting shirts from 90s French players you like.
Speaker 1:So you just in signed autographed shirts as well, do you do? I'm not.
Speaker 2:I'm not. No, i'm not, and I actually was at an event back in March and and it was Duncan Ferguson was speaking, and I Turned up to this event wearing a Dundee United shirt, because Duncan Ferguson played for Dundee United And it was the shirt that he wore, played for us for a couple of seasons. It was the shirt He wore. This is back in the day when the teams would keep the same shirt for two seasons, by the way, and when there was only a home and away one. There wasn't a fourth and a fifth one. And on that theme, just that tangent, do you remember shirts Napoli have released this season? Do you want to shut up a released 13 shirts.
Speaker 2:Wow 13 last season. Remember, man United used to release a third shirt and they people would go mad Yeah, he shirts man United, i'm greedy, or man United, anyway, i'm off at a tangent. So I met Duncan Ferguson and he said I got my photo of them and I I actually asked about the Q&A and that was a question asked him What was it? What was the favorite shirt that you wore during your career? What was your favorite shirt you wore? I mean he could, he liked the question because a bit different, well, that's a good one. And he said it was the Everton umbral. That said one to one on it, all right. And then he asked me said you've conceived the Dundee United shirt on, would you like me to sign it? I said no, i don't want you to sign it. Don't you to write on my shirt? This is a prized possession? No, thanks. So, uh, i don't know if I offended him or not, but I was far enough aware that he wasn't gonna throttle me And but yeah, no, i don't collect autograph ones.
Speaker 2:If I did, i wouldn't mind a couple of autograph ones, but I probably put them in a frame and put them in the office or something like that. You know, i wouldn't. I wouldn't wear them back. There is a culture in the football shirt community where you don't wear the shirt. Some people are appalled by the fact I wear these. A lot of people buy them and they hang them up when they try and keep them pristine. But I just think where's the fun in that? Now I say that until I wear them, this pristine 1994, man United can't in our shirt with Premier League patches on the side. You'll notice, um, and then I spill half a point of Guinness on it. Then I'll, i'll be, i'll not be laughing then. But yeah, i do like to wear them.
Speaker 1:So, uh, who's your favourite? like all-time player, do you have anyone in particular?
Speaker 2:Uh, all time it has to be Maradona, all time. You know, just, it was just like something you'd never seen when I was watching him. Just incredible, uh, i always remember that. Um, there's the famous one on youtube where he does the keep you up a routine to the the um, you know the austrian pop group opus do us own. Life is life And he does the keep you up to the tune of life is life. Uh, that was our european game. They played against baramunic. But My favourite one was in the 1990 world cup.
Speaker 2:This one I don't know if it's on youtube, but he was doing the warm-up in In the opening game of the world cup and they were going to play cameroon And he did these keep you up on his shoulder, it's the ball going up on his shoulder, you know, oh, this is unbelievable. Um, and yeah, just, you just couldn't take your eyes off. Just in credit, just a small guy, but you seem to be able to wriggle, almost like you know, when you see a. You see people say mice, a mouse can get through a mouse hole That's the size of a pinhole in your skirting board, straight, and he seemed to be able to get through these spaces between defenders that there was no space, but he still got through the incredible similarity met messy as well, the way he sort of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, linear him for the difference in with with messy. I mean, i appreciate messy, but it doesn't chime. The same resonance isn't there, because I think maradona had all the obstacles against him. Messi's been given all the opportunities, he's played for bar salona, he's like a darling of FIFA and UEFA, but his maradona really was not a darling And he ended up signing for an unfashionable team in napole and he was really thrown out of Barcelona. And he was also thrown out of the world cup in 1994. As well as that, he was banned from playing football for taking recreational drugs.
Speaker 2:Now, if we look at Messi Unless and I appreciate Messi he was convicted of tax evasion And he was not banned. He was rewarded with a multimillion-dollar contract to paris angiouan. And you know, i just think, yes, i appreciate him, but I think what chimes with me are people who've had to get through the obstacles to make it to the top And they've got flaws. I do you like a flawed genius rather than one who's, you know, a little bit more airbrushed. So, while Messi I don't know, he may well be a The equal of maradona. What, what I think, spelled for me was that he was not was his celebration when he won the world cup. He copied the maradona world cup celebration. I thought you need to be your own man. Why are you?
Speaker 1:copying him.
Speaker 2:You know you, you're, you're messy, you should be messy, don't be, don't try to emulate maradona. Um, so yeah, i do like a flawed genius.
Speaker 1:So, maradona, obviously, cantina, george Best, francesco Totti, roberto Baggio, these kind of flawed geniuses, they all appeal to me so, uh, do you have anyone who you see as inspirational or or someone you you look to, whether that's in football, or A figure, person in history perhaps, or even now, who you think things? uh, you know what they did or achieved Is the real inspirational.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean, there's, there's, there's many people, um, i think You know what. What inspires me, i think, is is people who've had all the all the odds against them, but they've still prevailed. Do you know? which is why we're just what we just said about messy there? um, and You know what you know.
Speaker 2:In terms of sporting figures, i do think that the rumble in the jungle Muhammad Ali George Foreman fight is probably the greatest sporting triumph of all time. I mean, what an incredible achievement. All the odds stacked against them, um, essentially his team, uh, all is surrounding people who are meant to encourage him. I thought he was going to fail, muhammad Ali, and um, he rapidly had to change tactics After the first round because he realized that his tactics of going for the quick knockout were not going to work. I just had to endure punishment, uh, until the other guy couldn't punish him anymore, and then he had to find strength to defeat him. That is incredible. You know that, for someone who'd reached the top, you might think I quite might put myself through this. I think this guy doesn't need to put himself through, but he did. And the guy who beat was, you know, a critter, essentially unstoppable. I mean that.
Speaker 1:That, to me, is the most inspiring moment in sport um, any, any lasting thoughts then, as we Faced the podcast now, yeah, and you'd like to give the viewers perhaps younger dentists, perhaps younger people, or Inspirational words of wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think I think the key thing is If I was a young dentist and I was doing it all over again I think you must look for the correct environment, you know and that that doesn't necessarily mean you know they're practicing. You know The west end of london. It means the right environment to let you grow. That might be different for you than it might be different for For individuals, but key to that must be a mentor Who is going to give you the opportunity, and key to that is you taking the opportunity. You know, if you're given the opportunity, you can't pass it up. That that's almost. That's very regrettable. You know, if you have the opportunity and you hear this all the time when you talk to people who are You know, you see this in sport, for instance Whatever happened to, and then these players that regret it. I wish I'd done this and I wish I'd done, i wish I'd listened to ferguson when I was at man United now playing non-league. You've got to take the opportunities. You've got to put yourself, as you said, you've got to be hungry. You know, put yourself, go the extra mile. You do what it takes to take that opportunity and that might not be what your friends are doing, but you just you know, if you've got you've got that opportunity, you pass it up. It's a big, it would be a big regret. So those three characteristics, i think would serve anybody well.
Speaker 2:Hungry to learn, hungry to develop? Um, humble. You know it doesn't matter who you are, you can't go around. You know you can learn from everybody and that's the way you should approach things. You know you're no better than anyone else. You might have done different things, you might have been given opportunities. Well, that doesn't mean you're any better. You've just got to be humble And smart. You're going to be able to talk to anybody. You're going to be able to come on a podcast like this and ramble on for 90 minutes. Or you've got to be able to talk to people Um, you know about what they're interested in, what you know motivates them, and what their goals are and what they want Their outcomes for the dental treatment to be. Um, so that would be my three things hungry, humble, smart and take your opportunities.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Thank you so much for coming on this show. We really appreciate it. It was really insightful And thank you so much for your time Take care guys. Pleasure, a pleasure, uh, and we'll see you next week. It'll. It will be on thursday, actually next week, um, and yes, just tuning up with the same time 8, 30 next thursday. Take care, guys. Thanks for watching, thanks Bye.