Ever wondered how some dentists managed to climb their way to the top? Join us for an insightful conversation with Dr. Aman Bharti, one of the UK's most successful dentists, as he shares his life story and journey in dentistry. From growing up in a small village in West Yorkshire as the only Asian family to overcoming the loss of his father, Aman's experiences have shaped him into the remarkable dentist he is today. Aman now lectures internationally on new dental implant techniques and is the resident dentist at BBC Radio Leeds.
We discuss the challenges facing the profession including how the younger dentists are shunning the NHS dental system and are moving towards the private sector. We discuss in particular about how to bring a coaching and mentoring culture within the profession. We learn the importance of having "chemistry" , trust and being non- judgmental and how to create an environment that allows personal growth and development. Aman has lived a life with no regrets and his take home message is whenever an opportunity arises, always take it. Never let fear, stop you from learning and moving forwards.
Learn how Aman found a great training practice and adjusted to a more work-focused lifestyle. Along the way, we'll also reminisce about some amazing guests from Series One of the Diary of a Dental Coach podcast. Don't miss this episode packed with personal insights, wisdom, and inspiration from Dr. Aman Bharti!
Ever wondered how some dentists managed to climb their way to the top? Join us for an insightful conversation with Dr. Aman Bharti, one of the UK's most successful dentists, as he shares his life story and journey in dentistry. From growing up in a small village in West Yorkshire as the only Asian family to overcoming the loss of his father, Aman's experiences have shaped him into the remarkable dentist he is today. Aman now lectures internationally on new dental implant techniques and is the resident dentist at BBC Radio Leeds.
We discuss the challenges facing the profession including how the younger dentists are shunning the NHS dental system and are moving towards the private sector. We discuss in particular about how to bring a coaching and mentoring culture within the profession. We learn the importance of having "chemistry" , trust and being non- judgmental and how to create an environment that allows personal growth and development. Aman has lived a life with no regrets and his take home message is whenever an opportunity arises, always take it. Never let fear, stop you from learning and moving forwards.
Learn how Aman found a great training practice and adjusted to a more work-focused lifestyle. Along the way, we'll also reminisce about some amazing guests from Series One of the Diary of a Dental Coach podcast. Don't miss this episode packed with personal insights, wisdom, and inspiration from Dr. Aman Bharti!
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, welcome to series two of Diary of a Dental Coach. Today we've got Dr Aman Bharti here who is a cosmetic dentist. I'm just going to briefly actually do a little introduction about our previous shows. Not a lot of people are aware of series one and there were some fantastic people who came on on series one and this is actually my first live for a while, i mean obviously I. there was a little bit of a personal situation, which some of you are aware of, which I posted about regarding a GDC case which I'm gonna be a little bit more open about and talk a bit more about some of the things I learned through that process and perhaps some things that I can share with you guys and help you guys understand and deal with these situations when they arise. So series one I'm just going to run through in sort of reverse order.
Speaker 1: So the last show we had Brad Thornton. he's a dentist from West Yorkshire, like Amun. He talked about doing an MBA and the 100k book that he's written regarding Invisalign and being able to use that for dental practices. The other guest we had was Nicola Harker, who's a GP, who's left GP now to become a coach and teach his wellness. We've also had Bob Pitt. Bob Pitt the American guys will know as Purple Cow Wild Guy What an amazing guy. He recovered from cancer. that was uncreatable and if you listen to him he's inspirational. He's one of the best in the business in America. We also had Eric Block. He's the stress-free dentist. He's written a book on stress-free dentistry Again, an amazing guy.
Speaker 1: We've also had Elijah Desmond, who's a dental hygienist and now also set up his own company. We also had Victoria Jones. We had Riaz Ul Haq, who was an accountant, and we had Sonny Luthor, who obviously cosmetic or celebrity dentist. We had Michelle Weingard. We had Dar Radfar, who was from America, who left Iran to make a life in USA, and he's the guy you want to speak to about sleep apnea and he talks about his personal journey with sleep apnea and the new treatments with regards to sleep and how it relates to dentistry as well. It's really, really exciting. I just wanted to quickly run through that, and now we've got our guest, dr Amun Bharti. welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 1: I know it was your birthday over the weekend, so happy birthday.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1: How old are you?
Speaker 2: You should never ask it now. I'm 42 years old.
Speaker 1: I know you went away. Where was it you went away? to What?
Speaker 2: was that?
Speaker 1: Sorry, i missed that I know you went away. Where was it that you went away to? You just went to.
Speaker 2: London for the weekend. Just saw some museums and stuff with the kids. I went to university in London so I always find going back there is nice and just exploring that neck of the woods I really like it Excellent.
Speaker 1: So obviously in this episode we journey through your life and your story and hopefully pick up some information of how you became one of the most successful dentists in the UK and obviously everyone knows your name, everyone knows who you are and you're really really well respected amongst the profession. Obviously, i've done a bit of research on you as well and look through who you are, so I know obviously at the moment you're based in Leeds in West Yorkshire and is that where you were born in Yorkshire. Is that right?
Speaker 2: I've always been Yorkshire based, so I was actually born in Leeds but I grew up in the suburbs, i mean surrounding villages. So you know Leeds, west Yorkshire is very tightly packed. So Leeds, wakefield, huddersfield if you ever heard of these towns are all very, very tightly packed together Bradford as well. So we actually grew up just in some of the remote villages which are closer to Wakefield. But the local hospital was many miles away in Leeds. So that's why I was born in Leeds But I grew up in basically in the countryside, in the middle of nowhere, so in a little village called Emily if people are from West Yorkshire they'll know it's where the big telecoms mast is.
Speaker 1: So is it a mixed community or predominantly white community?
Speaker 2: Fully white community. We were the only Asians in the village. So, how come, you guys?
Speaker 1: ended up there.
Speaker 2: Say that, guys sorry.
Speaker 1: How come you guys ended up there. Was that where you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so why did we end up there? So my dad was a GP doctor from India, emigrated here in 1968 and his community, you know. He came over with a couple of mates that he went to university with and everyone started out in London and you know what it's like today. It was pretty much the same situation back in the 60s when the immigrants came over, that it was saturated and difficult to get jobs and then people started going, branching out, going further, further north to find to find employment, and a couple of his mates settled up in Yorkshire and they were just like look, mahinda, you should come up to Yorkshire, there's good opportunities here. So he did a few jobs in Yorkshire and then he did his GP training and then decided that I'm gonna go for it and he ended up taking over a practice in this village in the middle of nowhere and then he ended up with a second one in the neighbouring village, also in the middle of nowhere, and he did very well for himself. But yeah, we were the only Asians there.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to obviously ask because something quite profound happened and obviously, before we went live on air, you spoke about this and you didn't realise the impact that it had on you. So you mentioned what was this at the age of seven. That's right, yeah and what was it that happened?
Speaker 2: Yes, dad passed away when I was seven. So I am actually one of three, so my siblings, i've got two older sisters and they're nine and ten years older than me, so I came much later. So dad was, you know, still really working hard establishing his two businesses in the middle of nowhere, but he passed away when I was seven. How?
Speaker 1: did you remember how it happened? What was it that he passed away on?
Speaker 2: He was very young, he was only 50 and he passed away from a heart attack. So yeah, pretty disturbing when I think about it now. But oddly it didn't affect me at the time. But you know, he passed away in the middle of the night and he must have been in a lot of pain, and my mom Did you recall that day or do you recall?
Speaker 1: Yeah, i do yeah.
Speaker 2: So he passed away in the middle of the night and my mom and my sisters found him in the morning on the kitchen floor. So me being the youngest waking up later on that morning, i could sense that there was something wrong. I could sense that something was going on. I could hear crying coming from downstairs and then just to come downstairs, you know, in the morning as a seven-year-old I believe it was a weekend to see your dad just lying there on the floor looking a little bit blue in the face, and just seeing because, like the other GP had come at that stage, there was ambulance crew there and just to see all these people just around my dad on the floor with this blanket over him. He's blue and you know everybody's crying. Oddly, at the time I had no reaction. No, no, no emotion attached to it, and I didn't have any emotion attached to it up until very recently, to be honest with you. So yeah, it's a big, it's a very, very. What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 2: It's a seismic event in my life which, which I kind of just swept under the carpet really, i suppose you were very, very young.
Speaker 1: Did you feel the effects at the time, straight away, do you think or was it, i mean, i suppose, seven? you do kind of understand what's happening, but it's a very tricky time I suppose you're still developing as a child in a way and then something like that to happen. Do you think it affected you? perhaps perhaps you were at primary school then. Did you think it affected you in any way at the time?
Speaker 2: To be right.
Speaker 2: This is such a great question and, if you don't mind, i am just gonna go off on one here, So I only realised only very recently how much it did affect me, and up until only a couple of years ago, when I did some of my own coaching, did I realise how it had actually been the single most important event. I completely shaped my life because at the time I kind of just I wasn't emotional about it, i was only small, and you could say that for the rest of the years, up until the age of about 40, i just swept under the carpet and if you asked me about.
Speaker 1: It's a very long time, isn't it?
Speaker 2: It is, and I would have said if anybody asked me this about five years ago, did it affect you in any way?
Speaker 2: I'd be like no, i just I was. I, i just handled it and I was a kid, i wasn't emotional about it. But there's a reason why and it goes back to what I was just telling you as to why we were in Yorkshire in the first place A dad was always at work, always at work. So I had very little contact with dad, because usually he'd be gone in the morning by the time I'd woken up and by the time I went to bed at night because as a seven-year-old you go to bed fairly early. He'd either just becoming home, or he wasn't at home, or he'd have to be night.
Speaker 1: This is interesting because I don't know if you've heard of Dr Rangan Chatterjee. he's quite a well-known guy and it's quite similar his story about how he talks about his dad as well. I think GPs them days, or did do that Work solid, like they had no time for the children. So do you think it affected your I know it's difficult to talk or even remember you think it affected you at the time in like in terms of your relationship with, perhaps at school, with other children? perhaps? I mean, what impact did it have on your family? because obviously your dad was either the main breadwinner of the family as well.
Speaker 2: So this is what I'm trying to articulate. So you know, for me, being a seven-year-old and you grow up after an event like that it's normal, right. So that's just been my life, okay. But my sister's there ten years older than me, so they knew dad as little girls and they knew him as young adults and for them it was even more, an even bigger event in their lives because their world was literally being ripped apart. Mine was completely changed, but indirectly, because I was young. It was just my normal trajectory, right. But looking back now, the way it really really affected my life was I had this happy little life in this village called Emily, in the villages in Yorkshire, right, i only ever been to one school, from the age of four. I only ever had one group of friends. I was the only Asian in the village, but I didn't feel it or ever know it, because my friends were my friends and they never said anything about me being different to them and that was just one happy life. I had my, my house, you know my school. So teenagers.
Speaker 1: What would people describe you as? were you quiet? were you the loud guys? what were you?
Speaker 2: no, so I was it so from the age of seven. What happened is that dad then died and then there was no reason for us to live out in the villages anymore. Yeah, because my mom was at the time then working for Kirkley's council, which is a local council. She used to be a university lecturer, but then she just started working for the local council, getting a lecturing job. So we moved closer into into town, so we moved into the hottest field.
Speaker 2: So, you know, because we just suddenly just up sticks and just moved from my comfortable life in this life Which I'd have, you know, only ever known, which was really nice, quiet life in a village, to all of a sudden living in quite an urban area And then going to a school where you know there's there's loads of ethnicities, there's loads of Asian kids there, yeah, big mix. But then also, you know, we lived in quite affluent area out in the sticks, whereas with it being quite an urban area where into school, all of a sudden I was thrown into this rough environment which I'd never experienced before and.
Speaker 2: That's why I was a quiet kid and I I wouldn't say I got bullied, but I wasn't used to, like you know, a lot of physical violence which goes on in these sorts of schools. So I mean.
Speaker 1: I was you mentioned. obviously you went to a state school, yeah, so you know, obviously, in terms of like driving motivation, you know, and obviously what, what age would you say you knew you wanted to be a dentist?
Speaker 2: That's a funny one, because I Didn't know I wanted to be a dentist up until actually applying for it.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's all the way.
Speaker 2: All the way through, all the way up until sixth form, i was always going to be a doctor like my dad. I Was always going to be a doctor like my dad, but what put me off is that my sisters were thrust along that path as well, like many Asian families are, especially if there's a doctor, as one of the parents is a doctor, then you are, you will be a doctor, you will be doctor, right.
Speaker 1: So I was always going to be a doctor, but because my sisters are older than me by the time I don't know whether it's the same in in your culture, but yeah, obviously I'm Pakistani and in our culture, like, especially back in the day, dentists used to be like the barbers. So if you said you wanted to be a dentist, it wasn't. They was like what do you mean you? you want to be a dentist 100%.
Speaker 2: It was a fallback career, so you only ever became a dentist. I don't want to offend anybody here, but this is the way it was and this is the way it was fun to be Yeah, you only became a dentist or a pharmacist if you were a failed medic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were the fallback careers. So My sisters, as I mentioned before, they were nine. They're nine and ten years older than me, so they were already doing their house jobs by the time it was. You know, i was becoming aware of careers And I did work experience in high school with, with one of my sisters who was doing a house job in north Manchester, general at the time, and I was just like I am, what is this?
Speaker 2: She was running around, she was stressed, she was working on the urology ward at the time, which is where they deal with people with obviously like urinary tract problems. So that was just like this really isn't for me, it's not glamorous, um, it's smelly, it's stressful, and I just thought I need to look at other careers. Uh, so just, i researched around it and then, uh, you know, there was this book in in in Um, a korea's book in college and when I had to look at dentists, i saw the salary, the average salary for a dentist, the average working hours for a dentist. I was like man, this makes so much more sense.
Speaker 2: Obviously, there was a hell of a lot of resistance when I told mum about what I wanted to do because she was just like you will be doctor, you will be doctor, you can't be like mum. Listen, it's changed. I said I know that I can make the grade to be adopted. It's not about the grades, it's not about being a fallback career. I really don't want to go into medicine And reluctantly she let me run with it. Uh, but it's the best, best decision I think I ever made, because I absolutely love what I do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you went to uh kings, didn't you uh, to study dentistry. What was that like?
Speaker 2: That was fantastic. Um, that was I mean. If I look back now, i'm extremely lucky to have got in there because, um, I didn't even realize it was such a. You know? um, what's the word?
Speaker 1: I'm looking for prestigious kind of prestigious institution. That's a great word, yeah.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize. I just applied because I just wanted to go to London. I wanted to go to London because at that time then, uh, both of my sisters had just been newly married and they they relocated to London. So so the idea was that the whole family was going to relocate to London, um, so, uh, i just applied to both qmw and, uh, queen mary westfield, and which is the royal london, and and kings Um, i managed to get to both and I just chose kings because when I went to the um Um to the interview, the campus just looked really, really nice. I saw guys tower, the views over london. I thought, right, i'm going to check this out that that that was a really, really good experience. So that's why, you know, i went over back down on the weekend for my birthday. I always go there, visit there. It's always fond memories.
Speaker 1: So tell me, you know, i, as an undergraduate, um, we were you always really really good at, uh, dentistry, i mean, i don't know how, everyone's had their mixed experiences, but what, what were you? what were you like? uh, as a student Were you? because, myself, personally, i, i actually struggled in that environment. I felt like The environment was actually very like harsh in a way. Uh, a lot of the time you felt like, um, yeah, you were overly criticized or overly sort of pressurized in a way. Uh, I don't know, uh, what was your experience like at kings?
Speaker 2: I that's. That's a very interesting one, actually, because, um, i can relate to what you're saying. Uh, kings is very, very different, though, to other uni Dental institutes, i think, because it's literally double the size, because it's two universities rolling to one is kings, and and and what is the old Umbs, which is guys and said thomas as well, all combined into one. So I think there's about 150 160 people in a year group.
Speaker 2: So, it's massive. Well, obviously I know medical schools are bigger than that anyway, but as far as dental schools go, it's a big dental school. Um, one thing which I struggled with initially was when I was at sixth form. I was pretty much one of the cleverest guys in the sixth form.
Speaker 2: So then to go from that Environment where you just think that you're the most cleverest guy on the planet to all of a sudden being thrust into a year group with 140 people either just like you or even better than you. That was tough to cope with in the first year. You know some of those first initial tests, uh, first exams on, i remember action potentials, you know, in biochemistry.
Speaker 2: I've failed it, Oh shit man, i never failed exams, so for me to fail that exam was a kick up the ass and then made me realize that you're not as clever as you think you are And there's always somebody out there who is better than you, more clever than you've got to keep working hard, you can't rest. So that was a really good lesson. Uh, as far as friends go, there was a. There was a unique dynamic that I was from the north, because kings is very london centric, so most of the people that go there are actually from london.
Speaker 1: Right, okay.
Speaker 2: I must say I did actually struggle, maybe for the first year or a year and a half, because the that that northern Mentality is very different to the southern mentality, not only just from the way we talk but to the way we dress, the way we just Meet and greet people, i would say.
Speaker 1: We're friendly, aren't we?
Speaker 2: Yeah, i don't want to generalize here. Well, i am generous, i don't offend anybody, but you know we're friendlier people, so I'm happy.
Speaker 1: it's fine, it's allowed. It's allowed. Cool Yeah, it's allowed. He's speak your mind.
Speaker 2: Speak about cool. So yeah, they're. They're really unfriendly bastards, man. Now From from a good experience in london.
Speaker 1: You know, your first job, vt job was that the only straight to york. Back back, yeah, i can't show you back to yorkshire.
Speaker 2: I can't show you back to yorkshire Um, i'll just before I did. But I'll just tell you from from the third year onwards I had a good bunch of mates, so the rest of uni was cool. But yeah, you asked about vt Um. So when I qualified it was 2004. At the time it was released denary by denary, so it wasn't one set date where all the jobs released, like it is now. Yeah, there was no national recruitment, so each dener would release their their dates weeks apart and Everybody who is everybody wanted to work in london and london was always the last denary which released their jobs. So yorkshire came out like a couple of weeks before. So I thought, well, i'm an idiot if I don't apply to yorkshire and I was offered a concrete job Before the london place was released. So I just thought, well, you know what it's close to home, i'll go back for a year and then was your mom still based in yorkshire.
Speaker 1: Exactly?
Speaker 2: right, okay and and the and the goal was is that I was gonna, you know, uh, well, initially I thought as an undergrad that I'm gonna get a job in london as a vt And then mom's gonna move down. But that didn't happen, for for various reasons. So I thought I'll go back up to yorkshire for a year do my vt, and then mom and I will we'll move down together. Uh, you know, uh, it didn't happen. I just got rooted back up here and I've been here ever since.
Speaker 1: Right, right, um. So did you have any struggles, um, during this, this period? because obviously the transition from university life to practice will be Is a huge, steep learning curve. How did you find that?
Speaker 2: Massive. I struggled for the first year actually, because it was the reverse struggle. Uh, first of all, uh being The only london. Well, in my vt scheme I was the only london graduate. Uh, the rest of them two were for chef field and the rest of them were often leads, so there was already a clique there. So I was a bit of an outsider in my own, in my own patch, if that makes sense. So I found my vt scheme a little bit Pleaky. I didn't. I didn't really enjoy vt at all.
Speaker 1: And what about your train? to train, i mean? I mean obviously we. I was very lucky I love my training practice.
Speaker 2: That was great because It was actually my old dentist and there was a complete coincidence That might, and the guy that actually inspired me to become a dentist was a family friend, and it just so happened that they became a training practice the year before I qualified.
Speaker 2: So I was there second vt and it just, it just happened that way. It wasn't like pat on the back, you come and work for me. I just rang him and I was just like You're vt practice, amazing. I said you know, is there an opportunity for me to come work there? He was like yeah, yeah, please come on board. That's brilliant. So it just all Married up. So my training environment was fantastic, but the release days I didn't enjoy it. Uh, but culturally, just moving from london, you know, and living five years in london To then coming back home to yorkshire the slower pace of life.
Speaker 2: That was difficult, that was difficult.
Speaker 1: In what way?
Speaker 2: because you're still in young man university mode, where you know you look so want to enjoy your life? and I suppose Yeah yeah, you know, the typical after work is not let's go home and put your feet up and de-stress, let's go out to a few bars or whatever You know, uh, having no response, I mean my own father.
Speaker 1: now I mean, that's the thing that I personally as well, a little bit struggled with. you know when, when you finish uni life, you were all together and you had your little Uh mates who you always, um, you know, spent time with. but then, once you, you left that circle, yeah, and then you go into this sort of same place of work, and work life is completely different because it's the same people you're coming across and then your mates have all then sort of gone, gone off and doing their own things and and working as well, and I suppose it's a little bit of growing up in a way as well. It's like, all right, it's work life now And I felt like university really sheltered you from real life and that responsibilities and, uh, i suppose the stress that come a little bit later on and I suppose at that time You don't really feel it because your first job and you're any good money and you think you know, wow, this is amazing, uh, and then you might start perhaps myself, you know by by yourself, a new car, by yourself, uh, etc, um, and then, but you look, but the social aspect sort of reduces, doesn't it, because you're no longer in that same environment where it's just a bit of fun and you just.
Speaker 2: Well, may I ask? I mean, I mean, I don't know about your university Are you from? are you from Manchester?
Speaker 1: Yeah, i was from Manchester, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you, you're still in Manchester, didn't you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah did you?
Speaker 2: did you live out or did you live at home?
Speaker 2: I sort of lived out Yeah, yeah, yeah you did okay, because that's important, because the thing is you're talking about having fun and responsibilities and Uh and and how it's a bit of a bubble. But actually I think that was really important. And especially moving away and moving to London, especially from Yorkshire, you know, so far away means I couldn't pop home on the weekend, so I had to learn how to be self-sufficient. I had to learn how to cook for myself. I had to learn how to wash my own clothes.
Speaker 2: You know, very important and I find that a lot of people which which, uh, you know, live Uh and and and go to university in the same time that they live in and where their family is from. They don't live out in halls, you know, they go home. From university every day back to their parental house and they haven't got the responsibilities of having to make their own meals and And wash their own clothes. I tend to find that they're quite immature.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so so. So it works two ways.
Speaker 2: Yes, there's the whole university phase where you've got no responsibilities And you're a bit of a clown, but it does teach you to grow up in that respect as well. So I think that's very important. Um and I know I'm digressing a bit, but um, i've seen that in my vts when I was a trainer. I could see it, i could see it in the in, in the trainees who had lived out, and I could see in the trainees who didn't, and you could see that difference in maturity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i think definitely like you, like you said you, you learn responsibility, you learn discipline, you learn how to manage your own finances, manage, uh, you know everything. Uh, i suppose when you live out Where there's, obviously if you, if you're staying at home, it's, it's a You've got a little bit of a comfort blanket, shall we say, compared to to having just limited some halls or some some room And things. So, yeah, tell us a bit about your journey In in dentistry then, um, you did your vt. I mean, would you say you know, at that point Were you really good clinically, technically. How did that develop? How did you become who you are now?
Speaker 2: Oh, do you have a strategy, was it?
Speaker 1: just Um, you know um, how did it work out for you?
Speaker 2: Okay, uh, cards on the table. In the early years it I was an awful dentist. It took me a good, i would say five, six, maybe even seven years before I was really comfortable with a handpiece in my hand. It took me that long. It did take me a long, long time. Um, for various reasons actually. So when I studied down in London and I'm sure it's the same in many dental schools The only I didn't see much carries I didn't see. I didn't treat many cavities The only the only cavities that I have in an area.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean thing is. I mean thing is, guys is, um, you know, king's college is in berman'sy And camboa, so there are actually, like, quite you know there is some deprivation there, so so there is the potential to see a lot of of of of of carries. But you ended up doing moral or surgery, the restorative. I just was, like you know, treating a little bit of staining around an old composite, cutting out a composite and putting it back in. So it wasn't until I got to Yorkshire and obviously, you know, being the foundation dentist in the practice, he just good seeing all the gobbler up, right, yeah, and I was. Just I never, i never, experienced removing fresh carries out of a cavity like that.
Speaker 2: So the good thing, though, is that I stayed on in that foundation practice as a as an associate, for another two or three years. So, like I was starting to take bite wings of all my work as a vt, and I could see that I was cutting these lovely boxes and putting these lovely shaped malgames when they were still a bubble of carries underneath. So I was having to replace my work, and I feel so sorry for the dude that took over from my list because he had to continue carry on Cleaning up my stuff. But that, for me, is the greatest learning exercise, because if you see your own stuff not working or failing and you have to replace it, then what well better tuition is that really? thrown into that? The whole motivation of wanting to buy my own practice came very, very early, and the opportunity came very, very early as well. I bought my first practice in 2007.
Speaker 1: So how soon was that after you graduated?
Speaker 2: Well, it ended up being that, just the end of just before I was four years graduated, i managed to to buy my first place.
Speaker 1: So I was actually. I was actually like that as well at the start. You know, one of the things that attracted me to dentistry was that thing of being able to be your own boss. I realized from quite an early age I'm working a few jobs that I didn't take too well to being told what to do or being told off, and I think that was one of the reasons why Obviously chose to become a dentist. And obviously it's not really like that in the real world. But having that And when obviously I did it, my, my, my initial plan was With a friend to sort of buy a practice was was your plan always to do it on your own or did you, uh, have that in mind or what I Had?
Speaker 2: no plan as such. And here's the funny thing is I get asked this question. Well, you just asked me all the time and I think this has to be applied to most things in life is you know, you can have a plan about something, but Opportunities will just come and you kind of just got to take opportunities as they come and they might be the most unexpected thing And it might be a case of you end up going down down a rabbit hole and it doesn't quite work out for you. And that's fine, they're all experiences, um but um, did I have a plan? I didn't have a plan.
Speaker 2: My initial plan was I was going to buy out my principal Because, like you know, i'd known him for years. He was our family dentist. He got me interested in dentistry. You know it was written that I was going to go and do vt there, and Then it was a case of I knew he was getting close to retirement And I asked you about 500 times if you want to sell me his practice, and there was a standard answer One day. One day, work for me for another year. One day I'll sell you the practice. Work for me for Oh, what do you think now You were interested, work for me for another year and I'll sell you my practice. And you know, that's how a lot of principles are my principles myself. So I can say this This is how a lot of principles motivate their, their, their associates, and string them along a little bit right. And he got to the point where I thought, man, i don't think he's ever going to sell.
Speaker 2: Uh, and I did my first year as a, as a trainer, so I took over being a vt trainer in that very practice. That was the first day I was a trainer and the first found vt I had uh Gentleman called jag jag matthew. He was my first vt and he's from a family of dentists from lees. Okay, so after he finished his vt years he was like, look, you know, i found a place in the next town along um, how do you fancy, you know going into it together, because we were both quite young, he was literally just out of vt. I was four years qualified. Uh, we both didn't kind of have the balls to jump into it by ourselves. So, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I'll start everyone's like, you know, and you look towards friends, and one thing actually I realized quite Quickly was you can be best friends with someone.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good business partners. And there's two different things being a business partner, because one thing I realized once money comes involved in something, you, you, you generally see a different person. And And one thing I realized quite early on, yeah, on my journey, you know, i suppose about early on I was looking as well and I realized that You know when, when you look for a practice, you might think it's, it's a really close friend and you could do well. But when it came down to the nitty gritty of of of, actually, okay, how are we gonna buy it, how are we gonna split things? Whatever, you ended up in arguments and it was like this is somebody who you were really close to.
Speaker 1: And then there's other people who I've come, um, you know, i had a city where I was gonna buy a practice quite similar, uh, and then There was another guy who I didn't know that well, but he was a really chilled out kind of guy. He was like yeah, yeah, we'll go for you know, know, and it's it's interesting the personalities of people and The way people are, because it doesn't necessarily mean because, because friendship is different I, and it's interesting because friendship is different to being a business partner and having the same vision and having the same Ethos or the same same same way of a sports thinking and and things. Did you have any of those challenges?
Speaker 2: absolutely so. I mean, We we Ended up buying another practice together and we sold out in 2019 and We kind of Was this an NHS practice predominantly?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So the first one was, you know, something like 16,000 UDA, some of that I can't remember. The second one was something similar Quite a big practice then to a decent size practices that we ended up having. So you know, you know It's like with with NHS you can't really grow it, so the only thing you can do is private on top. So one of the sites was a little bit further away, so that was always lagging, but the one that we bought first, that turned into a quite, quite, quite a monster of a practice. But we got them well and we never fell out about money, which is great. So we always had that. But it's what you said about ethos was true. So you know he was never motivated to do any private work, still isn't, and and that's just the type of dentist he is, and that's fair, you know, because not everybody wants to do smile makeovers, implants many years. You know that's quite stressful in itself.
Speaker 1: I think I wanted to interesting topic that I want to a little bit delve into. Yeah, i suppose it's a bit dental related as well. I'm. We're gonna talk a bit more about it. The thing is, obviously You're a principal and there's an associate. Now the associate will have one thing in mind. Yeah, i'll have one thing in mind and I've had it myself where I've worked up practices And there's a principal like the one that you described, where it's a very heavily focused NHS system and the whole, the whole Structure, the way it's or is all about make sure you do.
Speaker 1: Your UD is make sure you use, you do the UD is What about private? No, no, just just make sure we'll sort private out, and then you put yourself under so much pressure that you just end up The whole, the whole practice is per heavily Invested in NHS dentistry and I think that's where I feel like as, as a sociologist, especially where Problems can occur. Because I mean, again, i was, i was speaking to a few people recently. I was, i was on a call We'd actually NHS England and they were talking about the young graduate and I'm not sure whether this is true, but they were talking about Some of the students have now decided not to do BT and went straight into private dentistry And there was a concern that this is what's happening.
Speaker 1: But then I've spoken to it and another person and he's sort of saying that I think the the data is not correct. Yeah, what's happening? some people have actually gone to Scotland and And and gone there rather than gone straight into private practice. Not that they didn't do BT, but there was this talk of and I think you've probably seen it yourself that the younger dentists nowadays Aren't that much interested in NHS dentistry. They want to do the private dentistry, they want to do in visa line, they want to do the composite bonding and Obviously, older dentists, perhaps like yourself and a little bit like me, we're all a bit concerned because I I suppose they're not able to do the basics well, like, for example, taking teeth out, and then they want to jump into straight Into doing high-end cosmetic dentistry. What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 2: Wow, that I'm not plugging my own stuff, man, but that's the podcast of itself. And I recently did a podcast with Tony Kilcoin. You can watch that on YouTube and we delve into that in great detail. And That was actually one of the motivations for my own podcast, because I saw this exactly what you're saying And I was just thinking what is the reason behind this?
Speaker 2: Why are the kids today I say kids, they're young adults right, i'm gonna call them kids because I'm allowed to. I'm 20 years, qualified this year, so I'm allowed to say that. Right, i was thinking why do the kids today Just not have that work ethic that our generation had, where we were just like we said to ourselves We're gonna qualify, we're gonna work our bollocks off for the first few years, get some money in the bank, and then we're gonna start furthering our skills and then we're gonna do you do you know Cosmetics, whatever it is? but we understood that there is a journey to get to that point. We understood that there's some graph that has to be done, some skill building that has to be done. Yeah, so I mean the analogy I was used to young dentists, because I mean, i stopped being a dental Foundation trainer in 2019, but I still mentor a lot of dentists for implant dentistry.
Speaker 1: They all want to do the big cases, because you saw the practice or did you know I'm a half wasn't anymore for the reasons that you said.
Speaker 2: I saw the attitude change in.
Speaker 1: One other thing that I was gonna touch on is yeah, but nowadays I mean nowadays the students especially are quite vocal, and it's it's a bit of a change in in Culture, shall we say, but bear. The students can quite quickly become unhappy with their trainer, with the person mentoring them, and And it can cause more problems than it's worth, and then that puts off people mentoring Or being trainers in the first place, because there's now that culture of a suppose complaint culture like I'm not being treated fairly or no spoke to me harshly and I think back then as I suppose as trainees we were actually quite scared to even say anything like that- Stay, quite absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean there's so many things there. I mean there's a whole societal change, there's a whole shifting attitude. and we can call it hierarchy right. We're doing away with hierarchies. So, in the sense, when I was a student, when I was younger, when I was at school, even when I was foundation dentist, you know there was always somebody above me, and that person above me whether it be my trainer, whether it be the principal, you know whether it be another dentists in the practice who's older than me They were above me in inverted commas. I looked up to them, they had something over me which was unwritten and it was an element of respect there. And When you look at the kids today, it's a societal thing. It's not their fault. The whole of society has moved that way.
Speaker 2: You go into schools now. There are some schools where you know you don't address them by mister or missus or sir. Some teachers want to be addressed by their first name. So there's a lot less formal than it used to be. You know, the kids today as well are a lot cleverer. As you know, each generation goes by. The kids get more and more and more clever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I Was having. I had a work experience student with me, yeah, earlier earlier this week. He's a 17 year old kid, so I sort of a little bit grilled him a bit about why you wanted to become a Dentist and One thing I said to it. I said to him that I will. You guys have got it easy now. He's like what do you mean? He goes DCS. He's a harder now And I was like what do you mean? there, you lot had it a lot easier, said. I said I don't think so. I said nowadays We didn't have Google, we didn't have chat, gbt, we didn't have any of these resources.
Speaker 1: If we had to solve a problem We'd have to literally go to a book or all wait a little bit, whereas you guys get instant answers to any problems straight away. So You're gonna be so. I don't. I depend on how you measure intelligence, because you know they've got so much more resources than we ever did. It's not sense. But if we're more like able to, suppose, navigate, problem solve, troubles you, whereas these guys are very much used to using technology to help solve their problems.
Speaker 2: True, but I tell you where it's changed. I tell you where it's changed. So like, for instance, pro, five years prior to me entering dental school dental, a dentist could get into dental school with three C's, right. It started to change when I started going to university. So I think the year above me you could get in with maybe three B's and then it was a AB. And then you know now you've got to get straight A's to get in. There's no questions about that. And not only that, you have to have straight A stars or the college nines and tens or something like that. You've got to be a straight student all the way through. And then they have to do this. You cat exam, right. So it is now the absolute, absolute cream of intelligence which gets into dental school or medical school now.
Speaker 1: And then I was reading an article actually last week, thinking about introducing apprenticeships Right for doctors. Okay so I'm not sure whether it's gonna be the future. I don't think that's a future.
Speaker 2: But they're coupled with that. Coupled with that and here's the thing, and this is the reason why it's changed with that In the early noughties, late 90s, early noughties, there was NHS recruitment problem Which is still hasn't been solved because we still have an NHS recruitment problem. So what they did? they double the amount of dental school places. I didn't know this, this is what Tony Kilcoin told me. So the double the amount of dental school places, but they didn't have the resources in the dental schools to double the capacity for the clinical aspect, which is why the clinical training has gone way down.
Speaker 1: But as a result. Is that the reason why About, about, how you know, back in the day they used to do, yeah, hundreds of crowns, hundreds of days, whereas I had a lot less experience than that, and I'm sure the new graduates are getting even less experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and that is the number one reason why this has happened. So the double, you know, going back to 20 years ago. There's now double the amount of dental students going through the dental schools, only Half the number of clinics available, only half the number of teaching staff available as as to what there was, comparatively, before they doubled the places. So guess what they have to do? a lot more academic training. So everything is academically focused, less clinical focused. So these kids, man, they can recite They're much cleverer than I was. They can cite articles, they can cite Schillingberg preps, they can cite Tana studies on soft tissue, right. And and it's funny because, like you know, it's as you said, about that level of respect I remember when I was doing a procedure I can't remember exactly what it was, but I remember one of my foundation dentists say to me you're doing that wrong.
Speaker 2: I was like. I was like, excuse me. He was like you're doing it wrong. I said, listen, you do this a few thousand times and then you tell me if it's a dean done wrong or not right. So this one try to say so. That's shifting attitude.
Speaker 1: You have this cockiness a little bit.
Speaker 2: Sightful thing, and and if I talk to people in other professions you talk to the medics, you talk to anybody, you talk to Builders, carpenters They say that about the young generation, right, and that kind of got me thinking. I'm in my fourth decade now. I think I'm just turning into a bit of an old git and I think that's, that's part and parcel of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after 40 years old was down.
Speaker 2: Yeah it does that. I'll tell you something which I always remember, and This was going back to junior school, and I don't know why I just always remember this. I remember the head teacher just read this passage and It said something along the lines of the youth of today Don't know how to work hard that well behaved, they're poorly dressed. And it was written by a, a church parish person, right, and it was dated in the 1300s, right, you're 1300s. That was dated. So that just goes to show that every generation, through every era, will always look at the younger generation and say they don't do it like we used to do it.
Speaker 1: I think that this is an interesting topic and I always like to a little bit look at this. You know, i would be even as a coach, because you go through life and you don't. I feel like you don't really fully understand life until you hit that age of 40 and and then you look back And then you think how you know and you get that bird's eye view of who you are. But when you like going through it, at the time you don't really think about it like I suppose, when you're 1890, focus was just to get through the years and get that degree and things like that, but you don't really think about where do I want to go with this?
Speaker 1: What do I really want from life? What are the options? Do you know what I mean? I mean, nowadays, i think there is a lot more support in that way, in terms of, you know, finding out your career path. But You know, when you, when you look back, is there anything you look back and think You know I wish I could have? you know myself, like, for example, after a couple of years of dentistry, i applied for medicine and actually got in Because I was a little bit disillusioned with dentistry and then I ended up not obviously going and doing it and It's not that I regret it, but it's sometimes. I'm just saying that. Did you look back at anything and think, uh, you know, yeah, i chose this, but perhaps I should have done this and could have gone into this or or done a different, um, something different in dentistry? even, did you ever want to specialize as in become a consultant or any of those areas?
Speaker 2: never, never, and I hope I'm not a boring guest in that respect, because I just feel You know you mentioned a few things about mid-midlife and and and being 40 and looking back, and I really really enjoy being The age I am. I I was just having this conversation with my nurse today, right, because my nurse is quite young, she's only 21. She's recently married and lovely girl She was talking about. You know all the challenges in life and and I remember when I was in my 20s I would look at 40 year olds and just think they're old and what they got for them. They poorly dressed and they're frumpy and whatever. Right, but being in my 40s now, i really enjoy life, man, i've just I've got no regrets. I I have achieved pretty much everything I wanted to achieve and more um, and my path has been very different to what I expected it to be, though That's one thing, but I don't have any regrets. Everything is just organically gone the way it's gone, and I'm very happy what I see.
Speaker 1: So did you ever have a plan? or was it just opportunities came along, you took them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so, so, so here's the thing. So, so when we were in kings, you know, the, the standard thing for for everybody in my year was I'm going to become a specialist in something That was a buzzword specialist, specialist, specialist. And if I look at a lot of the people in my year group now, a lot of them did end up becoming specialists. That, like in my year group from kings, is like you know, i know there's a few specialist oral surgeons, there's a few specialist endodontists, there's one restorative consultant, um, you know, so there's an orthodontic consultant. So a lot of people did go down that path. And the other buzzword was maxfax. So I always had that thing in my head that I need to specialize, i need to specialize, i need to specialize.
Speaker 2: But when I started VT, as I said, i knew the practice owner. My VT trainer wasn't the practice owner, the practice owner was my dentist. For the VT training there was an associate. But I knew the practice owner And it was really nice of him to ground me in that respect, because he was just one of those gdps Which had qualified in the 70s and didn't want to do anything else but do a malbums and gic's all day. But he taught me about the business aspect and the life aspect and he was telling me about how This building that he comes into every day fuels his lifestyle. It fuels his, you know, putting his kids through school. He can drive the car He drives to work every day. He can live in the house He lives in because this business You know, looking down people's mouths all day and putting this silver thing into their teeth Pays the bills, and that's really important.
Speaker 2: When I started doing the maths, so how much it would cost for me to go back into house, job training, slum it. For a few years, you know, i wasn't able to buy a house, i wasn't able to buy a car and have to put all that on the back burner. And I suppose if you asked me 10 years ago, did I regret making that decision not to go down that route? I would have probably said, yeah, maybe I regret it, but the way things have panned out since then, then no, i have no regrets. I have no regrets, but I just ended up going down that gdp route. And then the fact that that practice came along so quickly around 2007, 2008, you know, my first practice Did that put me on the trajectory that I only ever was going to be a business owner from that point forward, and I didn't really have time for studying.
Speaker 1: Uh. I mean business element or the business side of things? Was that something you just learned as you went along? Did you have anyone who helped you apart from, obviously, you know the principle you worked for. how did you? how did you Grow? grow into that and obviously, grow into obviously, i know you own three practices. Um, how did you?
Speaker 2: Right, he's the thing right and he's. The funny thing Is that I would. I only own one practice now We've sold the other two off and I'm the sole owner of this, of this. Uh, uh, i own head road and the lead city centre now. So jag, who I used to own the other two clinics with, he's got his own NHS clinic up in north Yorkshire now. So we're still great mates but we don't do business together anymore. We still own some properties together, but we don't do it industry together. Um, and I would say I've owned that clinic. I've owned head road dental now, believe it not for eight years, and I would say that it's only within the last two, maybe three years that Fundamentally, i truly understand business, i truly understand finance, i truly understand the way things work. Up until this point and haven't gone through now almost my third practice, i haven't actually understood the way things work. I haven't understood business whatsoever.
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing with dentists as well. There's obviously no teaching at dental school about it and you then go in, go in there and and perhaps spend a lot of time as an associate, so you don't really again understand the workings of the actual business side of things the cost of materials, for example, the management of the staff and, and there's a lot of because there's a business owner. The book stops with you as an associate, you turn the light off and you're going home and and that's it, and you wait for the next day And and as long as you've got a nurse there and and you just get on with it and you don't really understand fully What, what's going on in the background And the person who's running the practice and and perhaps some of the stresses and and and strains of dealing with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i think, just I think the going back to the original thing about. Did I have any knowledge In about business and I've only really got to grips with it in the last last few years. But just the attitude is, and always has been, that you know, if an opportunity comes I think I must have read this in a Richard Branson book can always think Richard, but his face always comes to mind Because I used to read a lot of business books, coaching books and stuff from from, from, from. Even university I used to read these sorts of things. I was just always interested in it. I remember him saying one thing, or reading one thing that he quoted saying Always, always, if an opportunity comes your way, just say yes, doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: If it's a good opportunity, a small opportunity, a big opportunity, just take it. It doesn't matter if you don't have the skills for it, if you don't understand it. You can always learn the skills or understand it as you get it right. And then if it's something that bears fruit and it's a good opportunity, then you run with it. If it ends up being a sack of crap, then you know you can cut it. Yeah, but that opportunity if it's never explored, it's never gained Right, so that's that's where it came to it. I have no idea how to run it.
Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting because it's also ties in with having, for example, a growth mindset. I've been able to think okay, even though I don't like this, perhaps it's an opportunity that I don't know much about. I don't know how to do it, but I'm gonna put myself in that situation and do it anyway. I see how it worked. I mean, right, how do you think that came from? because obviously not everyone has that mindset, and especially a lot of dentists. We live in it. I suppose it in some, some, some, sometimes an area of fearing complaints, fearing things. I mean, how, how, how? I think you've got a two question. Where do you, where do you think you saw this mindset of growth mindset came from?
Speaker 1: Yeah and this. The second thing was how do you deal with because because obviously speak to a lot of dentists, especially people who work, you know, in high-end clinics, like like yourself. I mean, again, you're very candid about how you started off your career, about how perhaps crap your amalgams were, and Quite open about about that, and the interesting thing is is that it doesn't really phase you, whereas a lot of dentists would be Actually quite scared to reveal that or or tell people that they were shit beforehand, for example. There's, you're quite open about that And what. What kind of advice would you give? because obviously I feel like dentists has a very Psychological, there's a significant psychological element between the patient and the dentist and the trust between the patient and the dentist. And You know you, when you work in different practices in different areas and Different demographic groups, you're quite quick friends and You know.
Speaker 1: And what kind of tips would you give dentists who perhaps fear complaints, aranches, about growing, perhaps, you know, maybe even going into implants? because again, i've heard mixed things some think it's amazing and they've flown and others have. So I've said, well, this is way too stressful, i don't really want to do this. So, yeah, i've got those two questions for you. One is the growth mindset question, yeah. And the second is is you know dentists who struggle around fear and And and things? Yeah, can you shed some light or give inspiration to the dentist?
Speaker 2: So so the growth mindset. I think I'm a kid of the 80s, yeah, so the kids of the 80s and I'm from an immigrant family, so I'm second generation. So mom and dad came over Literally from India or fresh of the boat. You can say, yeah, but not the professional people, right. But still, i mean like there's a lot of non professionals that came over from India and Pakistan And then they worked in shops and stuff and that's graft, right. But even though my parents were professionals, they still had to graft, right. So dad, as I told you, i was seven years old when he died, but I hardly ever saw him. He was always at work, right. So that's ingrained into that. You've got a graft. That's. That's where that comes from.
Speaker 2: But because I'm a kid of the 80s and second generation as well, the kids of the 80s we always like. We liked cars and football, right. So in the sense I remember I had a shot, mike, i've got a son. Now He's easy level. He doesn't really, he's not into cars, right. I was always into cars. So I had a shiny red poster of like a red Ferrari on the wall and you know, i remember watching Rocky and stuff as a kid and seeing the Ferrari and I don't know where that Come. That's, i'm just telling him going off on one here. But yeah, i always saw in my head that one day I'm gonna have a shiny red Ferrari right, and that has always been background in there. That that's I'm gonna pick something in life, or I'm gonna be a doctor. That's why I was like you're going to be doctor. I always thought I am gonna be, you know, well off and I'm gonna have a red Ferrari, and that was always something that motivated me.
Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting concept because you're talking about self-belief there and how you really back to yourself. Yeah, cuz, obviously you know you speak, you know, obviously to people nowadays It's a bit like it's a bit of an unrealistic goal, but in a way, but you can make it become real by having that belief and backing yourself. You know what I? I think I can get there, i. So what I'm trying to ask is yeah, you know, everyone dreams of becoming a fast, you know footballer, driving a Ferrari, having a huge house, yeah, all these kind of things. Obviously, you're always trying to get to the next level, that next level, that next level. Yeah, it was that always from a young age, was it? do you think the fact that you, your dad, passed away, perhaps, was like, right, i'm gonna smash it, i'm gonna make sure I make him proud, make my family proud? What was the driving factor? or why do you think you felt like you could achieve, achieve this goal?
Speaker 2: 100% that, actually, and I've psychoanalyzed myself in my fourth decade and my primary driving factor has always been dad and even though he Hasn't been around to see it, i've always had in my head that I have to make dad proud. Yeah, i can't articulate it 100%, but it goes something like And I know this sounds really stupid, but even as a seven-year-old and this probably doesn't wash with society very well these days, but even as a seven-year-old I kind of had it in my mind that I'm the man of the house, i'm the only bloke in the house left and I've got to make something of my life.
Speaker 2: And that's where it's from and I tell you the other thing is That experience of going from such a nice protected environment Before the age of seven then to go into an urban area and go into a very rough school and get beaten up quite a lot As a you know, especially in the early, early years of high school, i used to get beaten up quite a bit. That really drove me as well that I always said to myself that there's a life after school. I'm gonna get out of this shithole and I'm gonna make a life for myself. And all these These cut-pad fridge, all these guys who are beating me up right now, they're gonna they're not gonna make anything of their lives. So just just ride it out. There's something better for you after this. Just keep going, just keep going, just keep going.
Speaker 2: And that's stayed with me forever And it's always the mindset It doesn't matter how tough a day at the clinic is, it doesn't matter if cash flow has been bad one month, doesn't matter if you get a complaint, it doesn't matter, there's always another day. Yeah, it's always that. You're always gonna keep going And that's been there.
Speaker 1: So how do you, obviously, these complaints or patient issues or things like that, how do you? Well, two question how do you keep yourself fresh? You know, from a psychological point of view, what kind of things you do because obviously that there's the work environment, which is obviously very stressful, highly stressful for a dentist. Yeah, there's a whole life. How do you, how do you keep yourself mentally strong when, when the shit is to find, for example, You know I've been asked this question a few times.
Speaker 1: I don't have any direct strategies to keep myself strong and I think Somebody says you know, obviously we hear a lot, especially the higher end work. I suppose there's actually more chance of Complaint because people are now paying and that's a big psychological factor for a lot of people, especially the pain. A lot of money for something. Yeah, they're a bit higher. Do you never think of it like that? or do you never think of the money, ever?
Speaker 2: No, i mean look, i mean, there are some patients, honestly, who have treatment plans which you knock up to 50, 60 grand, some of them right. So At the end of the day, you do it's, you're dealing with people, and this is the thing. This is the thing that dentists miss is that it's a people's profession. Yes, it's a clinical job as well, and we have to deliver clinically, but that patient doesn't actually know what's going on their mouth. They're trusting you to do the work. So, first of all, you need to be skilled in what you do. So if you haven't got the skill, then you're not going to be able to deliver in the first place. This goes back to what we were saying a little bit earlier about how the kids now coming out of dental school They don't want to do the NHS jobs. They want to just go straight into all the cosmetic stuff and do all the fancy shit that they see on Instagram. Right, the thing is, my NHS grounding and being able to see my shit work, cutting those boxes into carries and stuff And actually seeing my work failing in real time and then having to replace it, was a great, great grounding for me to say, actually, you know what I need to open my game and there is no substitute for experience. So you just got to keep going, and the NHS is actually a fantastic Environment to start experimenting when you learn a new skill and perfect your skill.
Speaker 2: What I used to say to my mentees when they wanted to do fancy work, it was like you know, just imagine you are an interior designer, right for the first. You know, you just come straight out of interior design schools, say, and the client like you know Harrods comes along and says I want you to redesign the store. You'd be out your depth, right. You'd want to start off to begin with Maybe having a small client in a 70-touched house and you maybe do a room and then maybe do a couple of rooms, and then the house and then maybe an estate, but then you work up and work up and work up, because then you've got your skills, your experience and your confidence. It's the same in dentistry. So in terms of, yeah, you need mentorship, right. So coming back to dental school and dealing with that, is this something?
Speaker 1: that I want a little bit. I probably want to explore a bit because, yeah, i don't think the culture is there and that's one thing that frustrated me about mentoring. It's sort of a new thing but back in the day, or my perception of mentoring in dentistry was always seen as a remedial thing. If you need a mentor, then you're not really good enough, and I know things are changing and things are getting better. Yeah, it's one of those things that obviously you know understanding what coaching is, understanding what mentoring is. But the culture in dentistry I found throughout my experience is that You're almost expected to be there before you're there And for you to say that you can't do something or you struggle with something, especially now. Perhaps things are changing and people are having more open and frank discussions like this. I don't know whether five, six years ago you would have been so open about perhaps some of your struggles, but I think things are changing and people are being more open about things. I think they're more open about things and there are more mentoring is happening, but it's something that I feel like it needs to be more accessible And there needs to be a bit of trust between the mentor and the mentee, because, if you know, if there isn't, i feel like that's where you can struggle sometimes And it's like, for example, i'll be honest, in my BT I felt like I didn't feel like I learned a lot.
Speaker 1: I felt like when I did my BT training, my trainer used to say you're a Manchester graduate. They don't really teach you much at Manchester. Did they not teach you how to do this? Did they not teach you how to? So my whole BT was spent struggling, in a way, because I was being questioned why didn't I know how to do this? Why didn't I know how to do? It might mean something simple like, for example, a matrix band non-properly something very, very simple like that. So I had that experience and then I went out into the real world and there, actually, i learned a great deal because there was a number of foreign dentists there as well as people and they were used to having a mentor in that practice. So one of the older private dentists used to mentor the other dentists as well. So it was a great grounding for me for that first year because I felt like, hey, i learned so much from him and I learned so much working in that kind of environment.
Speaker 1: But to me. I probably got lucky going into an environment like that. I don't think there were many environments like that at the time and that's something that I obviously wanna ask you a little bit about. How do we, or how can we, incorporate mentorship as part of normal, you know, make it a normal thing? Do you know what I mean? And nowadays, i think a lot of dentists, especially watching, will be thinking you know, we spend thousands and thousands on these courses and a lot of the time either you don't have the patience you can do it on or, secondly, you don't feel confident enough to perform whatever you've just learned. And how do you create a system where mentorship is at the heart of everything you do and it's seen as a learning experience and it's seen as it's fine if you don't know how to do something, because we're not here to judge you, we're here to help you How do you create that kind of culture within dentistry?
Speaker 2: Well, if I can just ask you very quickly when you were doing foundation training, what was the application process then? Did you have to national recruitment? was it all air recruitment?
Speaker 1: No, to be honest with myself, i didn't get in. It was as we just before we went live on air. It was the good old days where the VT trainer decides sorry, the person who's applying has some deal with the trainer and they get in. Mine, i actually didn't get a place, but then so I actually did my finals without a place for VT And luckily, i think, some people failed during that year. So obviously some clearing places came available And then, obviously, i went for interviews and it was quite surprising because I went to this practice and there were 12 other candidates at the practice and I was the one who got selected out of those of the 12. So, yeah, so that's how it worked. But my question is how do we create a mentoring culture within dentistry?
Speaker 2: But the reason why I was just sidetracked and asked you that question is because I actually think the answer to that it's down to personal. It's people, right? So in the sense I started training I've been a VT trainer in 2007 or eight, i can't remember exactly right. That was my first year And all the way up until about maybe 2014,. It was that process where you would meet that person face to face And you could tell in that moment, literally within the first 30 seconds, that I'm gonna get on with that guy or girl, i'm gonna get on with them And it's gonna be a good year and we're gonna have good rapport, good reciprocation, and that is part of it, and I know that there would be.
Speaker 1: I think 30 seconds is a little bit too, as in two legs I think. but what I'm trying to say is very difficult because even in the VT trainer I'm sure it still happens Some trainers they're very hands off, they don't care what you do or whether you do it, and they'll sign you off. And I've had friends who do that and that's the end of it.
Speaker 1: And then there's other trainers who will take it very, very seriously and be like I'm gonna make sure that by the end of this training year you're good enough to go out there and get there. But my question to you is more like obviously it's only a year and everyone's experience is gonna be different And they're gonna get different levels even at the end of that training process. But what I'm saying is how do you create a lifelong mentorship culture within dentistry?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but again I'm just, i'm going back to that. So this is what I was saying about within 30 seconds And you probably didn't believe me, but believe me honestly, I could just tell the minute somebody walks through and there's an energy, there's a connection, i could tell that person, i could train. That changed And this is what I think has fallen flat in dentistry. Now I know that there was legal issues around recruitment and then that had to fall in line, which is why national recruitment is what it is today. But what's happening now is that people are getting paired together based on, you know, on results from an off-ski say, whatever national recruitment is, and people are getting paired.
Speaker 2: People are getting put into practices where those two people just don't gel And some people gel and they have a great year. Some people gel or don't gel, i should say, and they just have a fucking awful year. And I'm not gonna mention any names And that person, if they're watching, knows who they are. But we're friends now I had an awful year in the middle of it, right, i never would have picked that person. The thing is is that now training is a lot more, you know, rigid. There's a lot more resources for VT trainers to send you a mentoring and coaching courses. I think now they have to even do a formal qualification. So if you're gonna go down that road and actually be a trainer and a mentor, then you have to have a qualification. You have to know how to manage people, so on and so forth. But why they're in dentistry?
Speaker 1: But again, I don't think that's the case, because I think that some people are naturally mentors, As in as in. Some people can be brilliant dentists and absolutely amazing dentists, But when it comes to mentoring or talking or being able to teach, that's a different skill in itself. It's like, for example, I went on a facial aesthetics course last week or the previous week. It was predominantly it was a GP's, predominantly. There was one dentist there And we had two different trainers who were demonstrating something. Now, one of them was a plastic surgeon and he was really kind of I learned a lot because his style was very much a bit more dental-like, It was surgeon-like and it was very much quite a laid back but chilled out but you still learn a lot kind of approach. And then there was another. The other trainer was a relatively newly sort of in their training for final training year And her style was very much more academic and very much more you know very different And obviously everyone has different learning styles and different ways of working.
Speaker 1: But my thing is and I'm sure a lot of dentists would agree, is that there's those guys, the hotshots, who perhaps promote their training programs, implant programs, And the reason why they're doing it is on a financial basis And a lot of the time people are spending thousands of pounds on things that aren't benefiting them, And what I wanna do is create a culture where it genuinely does benefit and we do see that improvement in the person. And a lot of people say, well, it depends on what you do afterwards. It depends on what you do afterwards. But then I feel like as a mentoring organization, you've sort of failed in a way, because you've sort of you've not really got them to where they want it to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i think you know, everybody has their own style when it comes to mentoring and teaching, right, everybody has their own style And you are gonna, you know, strike a chord with some people and they're gonna have some people that don't like your style. So, like you've just given the example of, there was two teachers in that course. One was very academic, one was a little bit more hands-on, while at least an adversarial of so many years, and you're gonna identify one or the other Quite equally, there would have been somebody on that course who preferred the other training who was more academic. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So this is what I was coming back to is about people. So, you know, mentorship as well isn't for everyone.
Speaker 1: What is it? I actually disagree with that. I'm gonna say I think mentorship is for everyone Finding your own degree? No, no it's like providing mentorship. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So obviously being mentored is for. Yeah, i agree, everybody needs a mentor, but I'm saying provide being the mentor is not for everyone.
Speaker 2: There are some people who will just not benefit from giving their time to somebody else, and it shouldn't. And he's the funny thing and I can't articulate it, but it's not a financial thing. I don't do what I do and give my time to other people for the financial benefits of it. I was having this conversation with Paul Tipton, actually, and he was saying that look, if you wanted to, if he dedicated the amount of time that he dedicates to training students right, he would. And dedicated that time to, say, property, he would now be a billionaire, right, given the amount of time that he's invested in it. But he hasn't.
Speaker 2: The reason why we do this is because, on a personal level, we just enjoy interacting with people and imparting knowledge right, we just enjoy it. It's just something there. It's about human connection, it's about human beings, it's about watching somebody fulfill their potential, and I can't explain where that comes from and why that's such a benefit, but the first time I experienced it was when my first VT would then become my first business partner. So I would saw that very, very early in my career that I had this guy who was a rough diamond, who came and spent time. I was responsible for him in my practice.
Speaker 2: I saw him grow into this brilliant, competent practitioner at the end of the foundation year, so much so that he was just like we had such a great year together. It was like, look, i found this clinic down the road, let's go into business together. It created opportunities And I always found that then fruit is born from that. It's not a financial transaction, it's a human transaction. You know a lot of the VTs that we had said on as associates. You know a lot of the things that.
Speaker 1: Coming back to my original question, i mean, how do you make it available for everyone? What do you got to mean? Like nowadays a lot of young dentists either they don't have mentors or they but how do you like make it accessible where everyone's on a journey of continual improvement, because obviously we all do CPD and things like that, but obviously that doesn't really improve our clinical skills skills to allow we get all the knowledge and things. But I'm talking about how do we practically implement a mentorship culture where Because one thing obviously you got to understand is mentoring is sort of where you bring that person who you're mentoring to that same level that the mentor is at or try to.
Speaker 1: And obviously it's very common in business and it's very, you know, i like to. I've not seen it a lot in dentistry. I don't know, your experience might be different, but how do we, how do we make it normal to be mentored? You know, how do we make it normal to go to practices and see mentors in practices, because it should be a normal thing. I think.
Speaker 2: I think you know it depends on the motivation I mean. First of all, why is there such a need for mentorship now? We've got to understand the need for it as well. So again, some of the previous podcasts which I've done with Tony Kilcoyn and Paul talk about the same thing. So, because there is less clinical training now at undergraduate level, we're not seeing competent dentists at the end of their foundation year, and that's why there's this massive sudden need for extra stewardship after you finish, because you're not the finished artist. Well, you never were the finished article after VT. But now VT is, you know it's an introduction. Then you are in the bid bag world and you've got even less skills than you had, to say you know, to a practitioner 20 years ago. So one of the answers actually is and this might be an unpopular answer foundation dentistry now has to be a minimum of two years.
Speaker 1: Right, i think there is talk about that in terms of when I had this talk with NHS England and they were actually engaging associates and asking what their opinion was. They talked about possibly thinking about salary or what our thoughts were, and I think this was one of the suggestions by one of the dentists that to plug the gap for recruitment. But I'm just wondering how much extra UDAs would they be able to generate, really on a realistic level?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think, just in terms of why this has got to the state that it is, is because just there's so much less clinical teaching at uni. VT is a case of now. you know, as I mean, this is my experience as a VT trainer as well is that I'm teaching these guys procedures for the first time which they haven't even done at undergrad level. So you know that's not what VT used to be about, so that's a different skill in itself. And you know, to fit all your own stuff, fit all your own patients, then trace them for the first time.
Speaker 2: That's very stressful. So VT has to be two years. It has to be two years And then the culture is there. So the culture of needing a mentor is a new thing as well Because, like again, when I did my first implant, I did it by myself. I went on an implant course. I picked a case and I thought, OK, this is a safe case, There's a lot of bone, Let's go for it. And I did it by myself. So maybe that's just me personally. I just have a bit more balls to do these things for the first time. But you know your answer about how do we get mentorship. I don't think it's something that can be thrust upon the profession as a necessity. There's always going to be people there who are just that way, inclined right, And it is just a case of trial and error, of finding an individual to work for that you fit with right.
Speaker 1: A lot of the time, time is money for dentists, isn't it So? a lot of times you're asking for help, that dentist has to be away from their clinic or, for example, a law, but so it's quite expensive as well. Yeah, to be able to do that, and my feeling is that it should be a little bit more, like you said, nhs funded or funded by other organisations, where, where it's supposed to be a bit more like an optional training programme or optional ways of improving, and there should be more options available for people rather than just spending thousands of pounds on a course, for example, like an implant course, and then not being able to place it.
Speaker 2: I think that fundamentally goes back to what I was just saying. Where has this need come from? Where most people that were just like I need a mentor, for you know, I want to work in a practice where somebody is available if I need help. What is that? That is effectively continuation of foundation training. It's because that year that they've spent in practice, that 12 months, hasn't been enough to get them confident and competent, Whereas before it was. So that's where I think the first thing has to change. It has to be two years, And I know that's really unpopular, because when people qualified they don't want to be two years foundation training. I mean, that was the last thing I would have wanted to do, But the need is there. The need is there and it's real right. So that is the number one thing. So you're talking about a publicly funded mentorship scheme. That is what foundation training is supposed to be, but it's not satisfying that need anymore. In my opinion And the causes of that are so deep rooted is because it used to be.
Speaker 2: These skills, these undergraduate skills, got somebody ready for foundation training, and foundation training was about refining those skills. Now undergraduate training is a theory course and they're starting to do clinical things, you know, for the first time in foundation training And this is why the foundation trainers getting pissed off because they're not set up for that. And that's where you end up getting an experience where you know you were saying in your foundation clinic, where you try to put a major expander, you didn't have it. And then you'll have a foundation trainer saying oh don't you know how to put on a major expanded, Oh don't you know how to do this, Oh don't you know how to do that. And it's because they haven't fundamentally understood that their graduate has come from a place where they're not being trained these things And it is your responsibility to do that for the first time. And it's difficult. It is difficult. So there is no quick and easy answer, but I think that's definitely one fundamental thing that needs to happen.
Speaker 1: So tell us what's the future for you looking like What, what, what aims and goals do you want to achieve? Where do you want to go, both personally and professionally? Where do you see the next five or 10 years planning out for yourself? I, honestly, i'm just so lucky in the way everything's just panned out.
Speaker 2: You're in a good place at the moment. You seem quite happy, quite content, absolutely. I mean, it was always my, my, my dream to be a professional.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was always my, my, my dream to own, like I mean I'll tell you where my dream was right. So my dream was I, as a part of my elective in the fifth year because we all go electives in fifth year Yeah, i was lucky enough to go to NYU. I went to New York University and I went to the Rosenthal Institute, which is the aesthetic wing. I saw loads of veneers and I thought that's sexy industry Right. So that's one thing that really motivated me. So I always had a dream that I was going to own a clinic in New York.
Speaker 1: Is that going to happen anytime soon?
Speaker 2: No, i now have a Cosmetically Focused Clinic in Leeds City Centre, which to me is the next best thing, because I can drive there every morning instead of having to relocate to America, right?
Speaker 1: So you know you're going to continue to keep growing your clinic. Obviously, you're an implant mentor, yeah, do you? are you just going to continue that journey and and try and grow your practice, grow your implant, that's what's happening So.
Speaker 2: So the focus for the next five to 10 years is really grow that to as big as it can be, and it has. It is just a steady upward curve with that. It just grows and grows and grows. We've done a refurbishment, i've got two new dentists joining. You know we have a lovely team and it's dream team. I really it's a dream clinic. I really, i just I love what we've built there.
Speaker 1: We'll just move on. Yes, a couple of things I wanted to ask you. One is about your podcast, dentist on Mask. What was the motivation for starting it And what do you hope to achieve by doing it?
Speaker 2: Well, it was exactly what we've just been talking about. I've really recognized now in the profession that we're having all these young dentists who are coming out and there's so there's so much stress in the profession which is tenfold to what it used to be. You know, litigation is going on. We've got a recruitment crisis. People don't want to work in the NHS. People come out and they come out of dental school and they immediately book onto a full mouth veneer cosmetic bonding costs and they want to do that. And I know a lot of guys you know my generation still own NHS clinics and they're just like okay, now, man, i can't get people to work in the clinic. They're here for two minutes and then they're handing their notice because they're saying they're not getting a bonding case is, and they don't know how to cut a deal box Right. So that was my motivation for this. I was like thinking why is this happening? How? Why is this happened? So that's why.
Speaker 1: So that's why, you know, in terms of your guests and the future for it. Are you trying to perhaps unmask or show the issues that the profession is facing? Absolutely. Get experts on how to handle the crisis or the issues that we're facing. Is that the purpose of it?
Speaker 2: It's talking about these things that nobody talks about. Because, like, when I talk on this podcast is actually quite refreshing because what we've talked about is pretty much what we you know a lot of the things, what we talk about in my podcast. But when I was like, because I listened to a lot of podcasts my hour in my commute in the morning is one hour, So I listened to a lot of podcasts and dental podcasts are only ever really business focused or clinical focused And I was thinking nobody is talking about the shit that's hit the fan over the last few years. So I really, really want to unmask that That's what it's all about. Thank you, That's a pure mold.
Speaker 1: Two questions. One is what advice would you give young dentists who've newly qualified? What do you want advice you want to give them?
Speaker 2: Dentistry is such a great, rewarding profession and it can be everything. It can work for you. It can be everything you want it to be. Yeah, everybody comes out dental school these days and they want to be a great cosmetic dentist.
Speaker 1: They want to do all these little dentists are leaving it as well as you, as you probably heard where they're falling over is that they've got to Understand that there has to be a grounding.
Speaker 2: You have to learn your skill, you have to learn your craft, and that is a slow road, and I think that's what's being missed, and I think this is what a lot of youngsters don't understand these days is that you have got to just grind it out for a few years. You've got to build your skills.
Speaker 1: It's like I was telling you about the interior designer You want to be in a safe space where you feel like you can grow, yeah, and you're around people who will help you grow as well. So whether what that means is yeah, i mean it's difficult because I mean, for example, some people Work for, for example, corporates. It's a very different kind of atmosphere, very different kind of environment, very different kind of way of working, but some of we become really, really successful through it. For example, you know my dentistry. I know I've created dental academies. Some corporates will pay for certain training programs and they'll have mentorship programs within that organization. So I know car corporates have got a bad rep Generally in dentistry with people of our generation. But I think they are Starting to to notice this culture that you, you know, you we've talked about on this podcast and making changes to that. You know, do you think dentistry will be more Corporate owned or do you think we'll see?
Speaker 1: The margins are getting less and less for independent practices and there's a lot people like yourself who've sold up during the pandemic. Do you think that that could be the future? I?
Speaker 2: think I mean we've seen what's happened with with with booper recently. They've had to close 80 sites right. So I think we are in an era and this is one of the other reasons why we sold up as well is You know our goal, jagannine? when we first started out, we bought two clinics quite quickly and our goal was to buy ten and be millionaires right. Then we realized quickly how, how about I sound like Robbie from only for the young del boy from only? So it didn't happen right, because just recruitment became difficult, credit became difficult, the financial situation became difficult. I think we are in an era now where it's a really good idea to have a single practice right and Just grow that one practice into a really great, successful The.
Speaker 1: American models very similar to that. There's a lot of American dentists who do exactly that. It's very rare that you get multiple associates working Alongside each other and they obviously have a lot of other issues that especially relate to the money. I know this is a bit of a deep question And we sort of tight on time, but in terms of NHS dentistry, private dentistry, what are your thoughts? Do you think we'll see the collapse of NHS dentistry when everyone's got their own views on on on the future? I mean, there's obviously a lot of practice who can't get NHS associates. Now is a big recruitment problem. Possibly therapists are going to be able to to now do you DA's themselves. There's gonna be a lot of different, i suppose, different dentistry, the landscapes changing quite rapidly. What are your thoughts on that? How do you see the future? Do you think dentists will just be solely private and Therapists will just be doing the bulk of the NHS work? How do you see the future?
Speaker 2: I think. I mean, obviously I have no influence over this, but what I hope happens, and Whichever politician does actually do this, is committing political suicide. But it's gonna happen, right? Is that they're just got to be honest with everyone. They're gonna be honest with themselves, they're gonna be honest with the profession. They've got to be honest with the public and just say look, the NHS has to be a core service, right? all this other stuff that you want.
Speaker 2: If you want a white filling or if you want a white crown, if you want cosmetic dentistry or you want something over and above that is basic, then you've got to pay for it. Nhs band 2 is a filling right, and it's gonna be silver and There's no ambiguity about it. You know, for instance, what used to piss me off when I used to do on a practice was you know, that patient has a lost tooth Right, and then it's just like well, why can't I have a bridge? and you've got to effectively talk them out of a bridge. It's just I. What kind of a crap system is that where the government can't be bothered to write in black and white What is and what isn't available? It's up to you to try and fudge your way out of it. So that's where it's got to change, and they would fix this recruitment crisis If they just made it a better environment for everybody to operate in.
Speaker 1: So principles It's not obviously sustainable because in monetary terms, with the inflation and things like that, obviously there's no real investment in NHS practices. A lot of practices like this like yourself, it was an NHS owner, it's it doesn't work out anymore the the money wise in the split and the cost of everything And obviously because of the cost of everything's gone up and and things, it's not financially viable And it's not as attractive or as lucrative as it used to be the NHS. And we've seen a mass exodus of Dentist leaving NHS dentistry and going into private dentistry. And so I'm just gonna finish up on a final question. Just yeah, it's a bit of a dark question about every vast, a lot of the previous guests and I nick this off another dentistry podcast. So if you were on your deathbed, what three things would, or what three pieces of advice would you give your loved ones?
Speaker 2: Oh, My god, i wasn't my death bed. Never turned down an opportunity, because That's always been my philosophy just roll with it and see where it takes you. You said three things right yeah that's one thing. I think the other thing is The only people, the only people you could ever trust in your life is your family. Yeah, everybody else, other people, even friends, will come and go, but the only people you can really, really trust is your immediate family. That's just my philosophy.
Speaker 1: So maybe with you on that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people come and go. Your family's always there. And The other thing is Health is everything. Health is Wealth, because if you're not healthy, you cannot work, you cannot live, you cannot enjoy life. You know, i went through a period in my 30s where I was quite unhealthy.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to say I'm very, very healthy now and I live a good life physically or mentally basically because I was working all the time, i didn't have time to go to the gym, i didn't have time to eat properly. I was like 15 kg heavier than I am now, you know. So you know I was starting to get early signs of early diseases, like you know hypertension, the high, high, high blood sugar. Now everything's completely normal and that's all just been due to diet, exercise And now I'm like physically fit. So, in the sense you know, health is wealth and that goes into all the age as well, and Tying all those two things together unless you're healthy, unless you have your family around you, unless you start taking the opportunities and living life, and just there's no, there's nothing worth living for. Don't be a hermit, get out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really, really important. It's something that obviously I always tell my clients as well, that you can't put a price on health. Health comes before everything else and Obviously we work in very stressful environments. Yeah, it does have health implications and you have to be self-aware. So you have to realize when the stress gets too much, when what, we know what what are you coping mechanism, what do you do to help get yourself out of that situation? But never, never, ever put that at risk because you'll never get it back. I think, obviously, as you get older, you know, you know, you know you you'll probably look back at the thing I wish I didn't work all those hours. I wish I didn't Because because at the end of the day, we're all gonna go and I think you know, you know sometimes, obviously You know, obviously your dad's not here here, but possibly his lifestyle or most likely would have been linked to that heart attack and 150%, it was yes.
Speaker 1: So you've got to get that self-awareness, because, because you think you know what I'm doing, this for my kids, i'm gonna do all this and, like you said, put them through and you're gonna put Almost your health on the line and you're thinking you're doing it for a good thing. But then if they don't get to enjoy that when you're older, then there's no point. So it's always good to keep your eye on that, because money isn't everything. Health is everything.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely is here.
Speaker 1: I think on that note will finish off. Have you got any lasting thoughts for this podcast?
Speaker 2: I'm just say one more thing, because I didn't touch on it earlier. I was going to, and it was advice on, you know, the stress that, how to manage stress and and You know, doing high-end treatments, doing implants, that sort of stuff, and it scares a lot of dentists. And one thing I didn't mention I think is it post-match at the end is look at the end of the day, where dentists right, we We can right, but it's very rare that we're ever gonna be a position where we can physically kill somebody with what we do. So what's the worst thing that can happen? That's what you've got to say to yourself. When times are tough, when things just go really bad, you know, when you feel like the walls are caving in on you, when you feel like just nothing is going right.
Speaker 1: Because I was going through my obviously GDC case that we talked about earlier. My principal used to say that to me. I actually used to piss me off because it was like, right, i know what you'd be like if you went through what I'm going through. Yeah, it's easy to say, isn't it? What's the worst they're gonna do to you?
Speaker 2: What's the worst? thing? I?
Speaker 1: think it's. It's hard to stay strong in that situation because I Suppose it's your livelihood, it's your yeah, you feel, and there's lots of emotions Obviously we'll talk about when I go on your podcast and there's lots of emotions that it elicits. These Situations when you have that initial anger phase and thinking why the hell is this happen. You hate the people that have done this to you, blah, blah, blah. Over time that reduces and then suddenly you have to tell Your brain another story because you think, if I just spend my life thinking about being angry and being this, i'm no good to myself Or anyone, so I need to get rid of that sort of thing. And then you go through this, this, this journey of performance, sort of accepting it and sort of coming to terms with With reality and coming to terms with what's just happened. You know in a way, but anyway I'm digressing.
Speaker 2: I agree with you 100%. So what is the worst thing that can happen? You can't kill somebody, right? No?
Speaker 1: I mean this sounds a bit flippant, if an imposter we do live in a judgmental Profession and that's another thing that that obviously worries the dentist. I mean, you know some sometimes, you know I've worked in places where I You've seen I even once started working in a clinic and that the dentist one of the just newly joined and one of the dentist Who was on holiday, i've seen their emergencies and and you were like what the hell, why was this done in the first place? Why is there still loads of carry? and it was repeated, repeated, you know, and it wasn't just one patient, it was a number of patients. And you're like I'm I don't know how I'm gonna deal with this and I've just started here. So so what I'm saying is sometimes you're in that situation where you see that and you don't know whether it's intentional or whether There's just a bad dentist or where, or whatever.
Speaker 1: And then there's other situations, and I think that's the worry sometimes, that Reliving a judgmental kind of coach, because I always try to give the benefit of the doubt. So when I see something that's not quite right, i always make an excuse for the dentist. You know, most of the time, unless it's like repeated thing and you have to be obvious, completely thing, you always try to, you know, find some excuse, because because I always want to back my colleagues and I always think, you know, there might have just been having a bad day, it's fine, you know, and we all have those days. You know what I mean. I think that that's the thing.
Speaker 1: That is is a little bit of a judgmental culture, and that's the thing with coaching and And and and things. It's, it's non judgment, or we don't judge each other and we don't judge the fact that you know, somebody else can be, because, as dentists as well, there's some that are really good and artistic and can carve brilliant, brilliant composites and brilliant work, and then there's others who are just plumbers really, and They can do it but they don't really. Then they're not the most artistic and the working clearly as well. I don't think you know either either ones wrong and they're both successful in their own ways.
Speaker 2: Hmm, yeah, i mean, dentistry is massive. It's not all just about cosmetic dentistry, smile makeovers, i mean there's, there's a job for everybody. So I think maybe there is that pressure for the younger generation, especially with social media and Instagram, that they feel that that is what they have to do. Yeah, but like my wife, she's a GDP, she works in a national clinic. She's worked there for 10 years, so she's got a nice stable list, loves the staff and everything, and she loves that job. Yeah, i do. It's completely different field. So in the sense, there's something out there for everyone. But the most important thing is is find your niche, find what you're comfortable doing. You know We talked about implants. What's the worst that can happen? It can fail, but you know what? if that isn't your forte anyway and you don't enjoy the surgery, then don't put yourself in the pressure to have to do that. Find your niche, find what you're comfortable doing, and you want to be able to just sleep at night as well, you know. So that's, that's the most important thing guys.